How do you DM's deal with "Dogpile on the evil wizard" tactics?

[ajanders]

At the risk of actually answering the question...

Otiluke's resilient sphere can be cast around the caster. Two things to be wary of, however.
First, many offensive spells won't go through the sphere. Back this up with Monster summoning or enchantments.
Second, while you can't be grappled, the enemy may just decide to roll you off a cliff. Very embarassing, trust me...
Otiluke's telekinetic sphere solves the second problem, of course, and gives you some tactical mobility. But if you have 8th level spells you probably have better solutions then that.

If you have the levels (and the familiar) channel a suitably unpleasant touch spell into your familiar and have them ready an action to attack the grappler.

I recommend grappled druids just wildshape into a dire porcupine.

 

[pawsplay]

Lich Fig 1/Wiz5/Eldritch Knight 7 with Whirlwind Attack and Arcane Strike. They will never dogpile a caster again.

 

[Crass]

Yeah, but then your players get that ring when they kill the mage and next thing you know all the PCs have one. :\

Point taken. "Use Magic Device" and a scroll of FOM?

 

[Plane Sailing]

While we're on a related topic, does anyone have some thoughts to share on how they deal with silence spells gone rampant?

If you are awaiting an attack in a prepared position, Minor Globe of Invulnerability is your friend. Silence spells do no propagate within its area so you can continue casting regardless. Works best if you are in a hard-to-reach area.

One of the other brilliant spells for getting out of grapples used to be Polymorph. back in 3e it was V only, so if you were grappled you concentrate and turn into something big and strong, shifting things back in your favour somewhat. In 3.5e they made Polymorph a VSM spell, completely nerfing it for these purposes (unless you have eschew materials and still spell and used up a 5th level slot to prepare it...). A wizard might benefit from polymorphing into a bigger tougher form prior to the combat now in order to dissuade grapplers.

Cheers

 

[ShinHakkaider]

But if every NPC knows all the tactics, than you have nerfed the ability. You just don't admit it. What you've told the player is, "You had a good tactic, so good in fact that everyone in the world has now figured out how to counter it. So, it won't work any more" I agree that not everyone should fall victom to this the same lame tactic again and again, but when you just have every NPC immediatly deploy the counter to good player tactics, you lose something as well.

Good play is just that, good. It shouldn't be punished every time by GM's that are just a little too attached to getting off their own tactics.

In my games most mages, especially those trained at a guild or school, have either confered with or has been taught by someone who's been in an actual combat situation. About 70% of the Wizards in my games are tend to be researchers / scholars the rest are "adventurers" or "out in the feild". These wizards who are "out in the feild" live by several very simpe credos, one of which is IF THEY ARE CLOSE ENOUGH TO TOUCH YOU, THEN THEY ARE TOO CLOSE.

It's a credo that to most spellcasters is common sense. Ranged disrupters (people who hang back in order to disrupt spells) are par for the course just like an enemy spell caster who waits to cast a counterspell. Pretty much if my PC's are facing a spell caster, especially a mid or high level wizard, they know that all bets are off and any canned tactics may have to be tossed out of the window. They are facing someone who is probably 1) smarter than they are 2) prepared for their approach 3) has minions to delay or thwart them. Not to mention if they are invading the wizards lair the fact that s/he will have home court advantage.

Planned tactics I tend to disrupt, because personally I hate canned approaches especially from PC's. It makes them think that I'm predictable and lulls them into a false rense of security. However the real fun is when the PC's are challenged and pressed into thinking on their feet. Everytime they've done this they've surprised me with their creativity and flexability and have created a session worth remembering. I never penalize my player's for getting creative, especially if they are playing in the moment and not trying to meta game.

If they are fighting some spell casting shmuck as part of a minor encounter then I may let the cheeze tactics slide. If they are going up against a major NPC, especially one who is aware of their presence then I'm sorry, no easy victory, no cheesey victory for the PC's.

 

[Squire James]

It is reasonable to assume that every wizard worth his salt knows about multiple-grapple tactics and will take steps to prevent them. The key to making the game interesting is to vary the methods, so the BBEG isn't becoming as repetitive as you claim the PC's are.

A few ideas, in order of increasing difficulty:

Wizard #1 has spent a considerable amount of wealth on a cadre of bodyguards trained specifically to intercept would-be grapplers. Because he spent a lot of his money like that, he has fewer magic items to fall back on.

Wizard #2 is a chaotic type that dislikes people. He has, however, mind-controlled some trolls to do basically the same sorts of things as Wiz #1. However, trolls are stupid and won't do their job as well. Dispelling the mind control can have some nasty side-effects as well.

Wizard #3 has researched a Repulsion spell that actually repels people. An instant spell that Bull Rushes everyone within 10 feet away from the caster at Strength 30 (or Str 10 + 2x caster level, capped at 40), or something like that. The PC's might gain use of this spell, so make it high enough level (I would consider my sample spell 5th level). That and the regular Repulsion spell might do the trick.

Wizard #4 uses illusion magic to make potential grapplers confused regarding which copy of the wizard he should be grappling. He has some Silent Spell versions prepared for wise-acres trying to Silence their way to a win. A particularly smart specimen might even make illusions of Wiz #1's guards, and a REALLY well-prepared one who has heard of the defeats of the other 3 wizards will have real trolls like Wiz #2 concealed by illusion to look like #1's guards!

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

The type of body gaurd could also disuade certain tactics.

Enlarged, Dominated rust monsters will keep any metal bearer away from the spell caster. A wizard could craft INT boosting items for them, or a Druid could Awaken them, and then they could start using tactics themselves.

Hasted dire bears or dire wolves would be bad for a monk.

Any summoned creature with Pounce or Trip would be good for the ranged trouble maker. Bamf it in close to him, but away from the other party members, (behind is always a good choice), then charge for a full attack + Rake/Rend. The PCs will not only lose their ranged guy, but he won't be able to do anything effective at all for atleast one round as he changes weapons, or suffers AoO. The party Cleric will also be held up for a round if the attack went well.

Summon Swarm would also hurt anyone charging the Wizard, providing that you can protect him and his minions as well.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Planned tactics I tend to disrupt, because personally I hate canned approaches especially from PC's. It makes them think that I'm predictable and lulls them into a false rense of security. However the real fun is when the PC's are challenged and pressed into thinking on their feet.

Obvious tactics (like "grab 'em!") should be expected by higher level opponents. Sometimes the tactic may defeat the counter, such as when you use a fire/chill shield and your grappler happens to have immunity, but the PCs should recognize that their opponents will try to stop the obvious options. More, use spells that target them if they've been encountered or monitored before.

BTW, anyone cast faerie fire on themselves to imply a fire shield? Very useful.

One great trick is to have an impermeable inner cloak with an outer cloak saturated with a contact poison, typically a paralytic or weakening agent.

 

[kamosa]

In my games most mages, especially those trained at a guild or school, have either confered with or has been taught by someone who's been in an actual combat situation. About 70% of the Wizards in my games are tend to be researchers / scholars the rest are "adventurers" or "out in the feild". These wizards who are "out in the feild" live by several very simpe credos, one of which is IF THEY ARE CLOSE ENOUGH TO TOUCH YOU, THEN THEY ARE TOO CLOSE.

It's a credo that to most spellcasters is common sense. Ranged disrupters (people who hang back in order to disrupt spells) are par for the course just like an enemy spell caster who waits to cast a counterspell. Pretty much if my PC's are facing a spell caster, especially a mid or high level wizard, they know that all bets are off and any canned tactics may have to be tossed out of the window. They are facing someone who is probably 1) smarter than they are 2) prepared for their approach 3) has minions to delay or thwart them. Not to mention if they are invading the wizards lair the fact that s/he will have home court advantage.

Planned tactics I tend to disrupt, because personally I hate canned approaches especially from PC's. It makes them think that I'm predictable and lulls them into a false rense of security. However the real fun is when the PC's are challenged and pressed into thinking on their feet. Everytime they've done this they've surprised me with their creativity and flexability and have created a session worth remembering. I never penalize my player's for getting creative, especially if they are playing in the moment and not trying to meta game.

If they are fighting some spell casting shmuck as part of a minor encounter then I may let the cheeze tactics slide. If they are going up against a major NPC, especially one who is aware of their presence then I'm sorry, no easy victory, no cheesey victory for the PC's.

Making up a story for why a power is nerfed doesn't mean you didn't nerf the ability. In game stories are just an excuse by the GM to stop tactics they don't like.

I'm not saying mages shouldn't have good tactics or should react poorly. I'm just saying that sometimes we as GM's take countering the PC's actions too far. Unlike the GM, the player is stuck with their character and can't really change their tactics as much as the GM can. Sure they can create some variation, but not near as much as you can with the wealth of monsters, spells, and magic items that the GM can create by fiat.

By stopping a tactic, even if you have a good story why, limits what the players can do in battle.


Let me give you an example. Star Wars. During the final battle the Empire figures out that they are vulnerable to the attack of the rebels. They understand that if a shot goes into that shaft, they will be destroyed. It would make sense that they try to defend that shaft. Why not have a ship fly down and park in front of it? Easy defense to stop a "one in a million shot".

The reason of course is that it would be a crappy movie if the rebels failed to destory the death star and instead Lea and all the rebel comanders where killed on the planet.

Games are kind of like that as well. Just because their is an easy defense doesn't mean you should crush the players tactics. They are the hereos, not the villians you create. In the end they should win and they should win by the actions they take. Allowing someone to disrupt the fireball that would kill or seriously damage the party is a heroic act. I just don't think it should foiled every time just so the GM can get off their attack routine.

 

[Sejs]

Have the wizard Forcecage themselves... barred version of course, so line of effect would still work. Or Beneficial Transposition, or Fire Shield, or have a bound Shadow with orders to str drain the bejebus out of anyone that grapples the wizard, or Ghoul Touch.. (which was rather funny the first time it came up. Grapple the wizard.. grappler gets paralyzed.. grappler gets CdG'd but fortunatly makes his save).