How do you DM's deal with "Dogpile on the evil wizard" tactics?

[ShinHakkaider]

Making up a story for why a power is nerfed doesn't mean you didn't nerf the ability. In game stories are just an excuse by the GM to stop tactics they don't like.

I'm not saying mages shouldn't have good tactics or should react poorly. I'm just saying that sometimes we as GM's take countering the PC's actions too far. Unlike the GM, the player is stuck with their character and can't really change their tactics as much as the GM can. Sure they can create some variation, but not near as much as you can with the wealth of monsters, spells, and magic items that the GM can create by fiat.

By stopping a tactic, even if you have a good story why, limits what the players can do in battle.


Let me give you an example. Star Wars. During the final battle the Empire figures out that they are vulnerable to the attack of the rebels. They understand that if a shot goes into that shaft, they will be destroyed. It would make sense that they try to defend that shaft. Why not have a ship fly down and park in front of it? Easy defense to stop a "one in a million shot".

The reason of course is that it would be a crappy movie if the rebels failed to destory the death star and instead Lea and all the rebel comanders where killed on the planet.

Games are kind of like that as well. Just because their is an easy defense doesn't mean you should crush the players tactics. They are the hereos, not the villians you create. In the end they should win and they should win by the actions they take. Allowing someone to disrupt the fireball that would kill or seriously damage the party is a heroic act. I just don't think it should foiled every time just so the GM can get off their attack routine.

I understand what youre saying (although I think youre a little rude in the way that you say it) I'm not against the players pulling out a victory. It just seems that the difference between you and I is thatI want my players to work for it and you dont.

Let's just agree to disagree at this point, OK?

OK.

 

[kamosa]

I understand what youre saying (although I think youre a little rude in the way that you say it) I'm not against the players pulling out a victory. It just seems that the difference between you and I is thatI want my players to work for it and you dont.

Let's just agree to disagree at this point, OK?

OK.

I think we just disagree on what the definition of players "working for it". I see using disruption as a good player using the powers they bring to the table in a productive way. You see that as cheesy.

 

[Felon]

I think we just disagree on what the definition of players "working for it". I see using disruption as a good player using the powers they bring to the table in a productive way. You see that as cheesy.

You've had your comments addressed enough times now by enough different people that it's becoming clear you're determined to be obtuse on the matter, and are basically repeating yourself at this point. Clearly, there's little point in throwing opposition at the players that has an obvious glass jaw, at least not if the DM's going to come to the ludicrous conclusion that there's something inherently unfair or "player-hostile" about NPC's having reasonable defenses against obvious ploys. Suffice to say, resorting to canned tactics fight after fight is not "working for it".

Thanks for derailing the thread just to grind your axe ad infinitum, rather than just moving on once you've said your piece (and run out of new things to say).

And a sincere thank you to everyone else who constributed genuinely constructive comments.

 

[pawsplay]

During the final battle the Empire figures out that they are vulnerable to the attack of the rebels.

Actually, they dismiss the danger as insignificant. And if you parked a ship in what is described as an exhaust system, it's going to muck up the whole system.

 

[Shemeska]

Arcanaloths w/ monk levels... PCs never see it coming.

"He tosses a quickened shield spell, then calmly punches you in the chest w/ a single strike, make a fort save. Oh and his fist is shaking slightly along with the air around it..." - rat bastard Planescape DM

"... he's a freaking monk?!" - player

 

[hong]

And if you parked a ship in what is described as an exhaust system, it's going to muck up the whole system.

That's the strangest euphemism I've ever seen.

Getting back to the topic: I allow sorcs to cast metamagiced spells while grappled. Also, the main evil casters IMC are a custom PrC that gets access to all Necromancy spells, including harm. Mage with Stilled harm == not someone you want to grapple.

 

[kamosa]

Actually, they dismiss the danger as insignificant. And if you parked a ship in what is described as an exhaust system, it's going to muck up the whole system.

It won't cause more damage than having the whole station blown up.

 

[Greatwyrm]

You know, wizards have to be smart. It's a professional requirement. Why don't we see more of them with Leadership and a cohort dedicated to keep stuff like grapple-the-spellchucker from happening. Or is it just that I don't see it that often? Complete Warrior had a PrC that seemed like it was just for guys that are human shields for the Red Wizards.

 

[kamosa]

You know, wizards have to be smart. It's a professional requirement. Why don't we see more of them with Leadership and a cohort dedicated to keep stuff like grapple-the-spellchucker from happening. Or is it just that I don't see it that often? Complete Warrior had a PrC that seemed like it was just for guys that are human shields for the Red Wizards.

I agree.

I think it comes down to GM focus and how hard it is to run a combat with multiple foes. It's just easier to focus on one spell caster than have a combat with multiple tricky NPC's to run.

Plus we tend to classify Wizards as lonely solitare creatures that work alone. A lot of modules tend to have the wizard alone, in the top of the tower with his moldy books and arcane rituals. I think this gestault filters down and we just keep putting them in all alone.

 

[ph0rk]

You know, wizards have to be smart. It's a professional requirement. Why don't we see more of them with Leadership and a cohort dedicated to keep stuff like grapple-the-spellchucker from happening. Or is it just that I don't see it that often? Complete Warrior had a PrC that seemed like it was just for guys that are human shields for the Red Wizards.

Then you just summon 2-4 creatures to dogpile the cohort while everyone else plays WWF with the wizard

Why not make the wizard the cohort?