D&D General How do you do smart chaotic evil?

[Maxperson]

Sorry, but, since when are revolutionaries replacing evil systems? History is replete with revolutionaries and coups that are fighting very much good, or at least, not evil, systems.

So one, most of them are fighting against dictatorships. Two, this is a Red Herring. It's not relevant if it's to replace an evil regime, good system, or an indifferent one. It's relevant that they will replace it with their own system.

And, a system where you are the sole leader no matter what? That's chaotic evil, not Lawful. Lawful systems work regardless of who is in the big daddy chair. Chaotic evil systems only function while the Dear Leader is leading.

There are no chaotic evil systems. A system is lawful.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

Would you say New Vegas' Caesar, with all of his Hegelian Dialectics, is chaotic evil? Or is there a "ceiling" of competence for most raider chiefs and "only" more lawful evil can rise to the tippy top?

Good question, "civilization" builders tend to have a long-term plan, at least IMO that is the difference because I picture him as LE. He also seems to be following a path a dictates... This is very different from Warlord Dementus from Furiosa, who doesn't follow any "scriptures" and seemingly switches plans on a whim... also the treachery without justification (LE will have justification if it does pull treachery).

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

Okay. So 4 editions clearly talk about whims, recklessness and being driven by emotion. ONE(4e) just makes them super insane.

Whims versus long-term planning is a big one IMO. You can be cunningly unpredictable and not stupidly unpredictable.

 

[Maxperson]

Saying that everyone and anyone that is CN or CE is insane makes the alignments useless and leaves out the majority of personality types that would qualify for those alignments. I view options for someone being chaotic as someone who believes in personal freedoms, ignores law, does not automatically obey or respect someone simply because of their title or position of authority as chaotic. They may value anarchy over structure, a lot of people do. Perfidia from One Battle After Another is chaotic - whether she's good, evil or in-between is a matter of opinion (and an oversimplification) but I don't think she's insane.

No edition has a CE write-up that doesn't involve insanity. I've seen no CE examples in media that don't involve being off your rocker in some way.

I think the best take on alignment was in the 3e books where they actually spend a couple of pages talking about what it means, what you describe is either chaotic insane* or chaotic stupid which makes it pointless. People of every alignment can be insane. Unless of course you're extremely lawful and believe anyone that doesn't think in a proscribed manner is insane which would be a very LN way of looking at the world.

This is 3e's take on CE.

"Chaotic Evil, “Destroyer”: A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him."

*Also someone no one would want in their party. It's a very 2e take on CN - someone that follows the "You might switch sides in the middle of battle to see what happens" will soon find out that what happens is that they're no longer part of the group. It was a dumb take on the complexity of people's outlook and motivations then and it still is IMO.

I think AD&D's CN is dysfunctional. It goes past insane. As for 3e's CN, first and foremost they follow their whims. Whims are done without thought. As an individualist first and last, while a CN person doesn't intentionally go after organizations or deprive others of liberty, if the whim strikes, they wouldn't hesitate to deprive someone of their freedom.

If your entire outlook on life involves following whims, you aren't a rational person. The types of insanity that result in CN rather than CE aren't going to be as destructive generally, but they aren't always going to be benign, either.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

So one, most of them are fighting against dictatorships. Two, this is a Red Herring. It's not relevant if it's to replace an evil regime, good system, or an indifferent one. It's relevant that they will replace it with their own system.

There are no chaotic evil systems. A system is lawful.

The system would be the underling's/sheeple's best attempt at trying to shoehorn order into a CE leader's regime... I would think for the most part "systems" would often have to be a rationalization of those "weaker" than the CE leader... so I don’t really disagree. Though, "system" building and governance are not one and the same as intelligence... just means the CE guy has other strengths that usually don't include those.

 

[Maxperson]

Whims versus long-term planning is a big one IMO. You can be cunningly unpredictable and not stupidly unpredictable.

I don't think you can. Cunning is craftiness and deceit, which require thought. That's the opposite of whim. You really can't thoughtfully act on a whim.

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

I don't think you can. Cunning is craftiness and deceit, which require thought. That's the opposite of whim. You really can't thoughtfully act on a whim.

I'm going to disagree, mindfulness and Critical thinking are different things. Wits and thinking on a whim is a different type of intelligence... but it is not stupidity. Now will that make you prone to working in a house of cards, sure, but wits and ingenuity aren't blocked from CE concepts

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

Been awhile since I read the Dark Tower, but I think Martin.. or Randall Flag are CE they seem like some sort of human incarnation of demons who aren't really sure about the "why" behind the terrible things they do. This lack of clear motivation enrages them all the more

 

[Professor Murder]

Iago from Othello.

 

[RuinousPowers]

The definitions of CE don't match up with many monster descriptions. How could gnolls have "friendly relationships" with other humanoids? How can hill giants keep pets and raise children? How can you have a tribe of humanoids, living in difficult terrain, that is incapable of long term planning? CE works fine for demons, undead, and solitary monsters, but dont make sense for anything that acts like a society.