D&D General How do you do smart chaotic evil?

[Bill Zebub]

Any "might makes right" or "the ends justify the means" morality is effectively chaotic evil.

Huh.

First, I would say that "the ends justify the means" can also be Lawful Evil. So, really, it just means evil.

But that's the real world definition of evil. There's also a "fantasy evil"...demons, devils, aboleth, extra-planar evil, etc. I don't think fantasy evil creatures are justifying ends; they are just reveling in the means themselves.

That doesn't mean both can't co-exist, as different flavors of evil. But, at least in D&D, I don't think the alignment system differentiates, either.

 

[bsss]

Yeah, there's really two alignments in the game, the "personality test" form described by Gygax as an evaluated point on a scale to see where a character is falling in practice, and the "cosmic force" form where it is a nature of some creatures' essence.

 

[Maxperson]

Okay, but none of that precludes "introducing thought" or planning in one's self interest. A high-Int/Wis Chaotic still has a functioning brain.

Sure it does.

"By promoting chaos and evil, those of this alignment hope to bring themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whims."

There's no thought behind caprice and whim.

Here's the 5e version.

"Chaotic evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust."

Acting arbitrarily is acting without thought.

2e: "These characters are the bane of all that is good and organized. Chaotic evil characters are motivated by the desire for personal gain and pleasure. They see absolutely nothing wrong with taking whatever they want by whatever means possible. Laws and governments are the tools of weaklings unable to fend for themselves. The strong have the right to take what they want, and the weak are there to be exploited."

Might makes right. Take whatever by whatever means possible.

3e: "A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal."

Might makes right. Driven by his emotions, not thought.

4e mucked with alignments a bit and I didn't play it, so I don't know what it said. For the rest, it's all about caprice, being driven by emotion, and whim. Rational thought is not really involved. The only thing that's going to rein you in will be knowing that someone or several someones are out there to stop you, and then only if you think they can catch you.

 

[bsss]

Yeah, sounds like a shallow interpretation to me.

 

[cranberry]

From my perspective, smart CE, is someone who does his evil stuff without regard for other people, but recognizes that he has to cover his tracks. Otherwise his evil activities might be curtailed by others.

 

[bsss]

From my perspective, smart CE, is someone who does his evil stuff without regard for other people, but recognizes that he has to cover his tracks. Otherwise his evil activities might be curtailed by others.

100%. Just look at Baldur's Gate 1 Seravok.

 

[payn]

There really is no smart way to play Chaotic Evil in my opinion, because it's a Might Makes Right alignment. It's the Joker or Kurgan. Or the guy who will shoot you because you have boots that he wants and he can do it.

Once you introduce thought into the equation and the person doesn't do X, because he might get in trouble or because it would be smarter to do at night when you might not get caught, you have left Chaotic Evil and moved into Lawful or Neutral Evil.

Ah, yeah I see why you think way differently than I on this topic now.

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

Looking at successful serial killers with long confirmed lists, or who went a long time without being caught, is a good starting point. One of the popular images of serial killers, that they're cool, calm, collected Patrick Bateman style narcissists, doesn't really bear out; they're often barely controlled, emotionally unstable wrecks who cause pain and pleasure on a whim.

Part of what makes a serial killer "successful" is how they fit into the local power structure. Killers like Luis Garavito and Samuel Little often target people who "won't be missed" by groups with the authority to punish them; sex workers, homeless people, gender, sexual and ethnic minorities. Others, like Joseph James DeAngelo, used his position as a police officer to commit heinous acts over miles and decades, staying ahead of forensic science and protecting himself with the blue line and the culture of brotherhood and silence common to American police.

All this is to say that a good chaotic evil villain is suspended in a matrix that protects them from the chaos and evil that they inflict upon others. A "dumb" chaotic evil villain is your common guttersnipe who steals for kicks, and then gets his naughty word kicked in by the local street thugs who don't appreciate theft; it's a problem you can solve easily. A "smart" chaotic evil villain is the local nobleman who donates to the Watchman's Benevolent Union and simply shows his donor card when the police come by asking about all the headless bodies found at the brothel.

EDIT: A good example of this is, well, the abyss, the dimension of pure chaotic evil. It's very hard to punish a demon for what they do in the mortal realm; you kill them and they just get sent back home. They are, ultimately, insulated from the consequences of their actions, unless they either get imprisoned or piss off someone powerful enough to go to the Abyss and kick their ass a second time. That's the horror inherent to chaotic evil; "sometimes bad people do bad things and there is no orderly system of justice in place to punish them, just chaos determining who gets punished and rewarded."

 

[TorgoTheWhite]

I just think of most Mad Max/Fallout Raider chiefs as CE. So, Darwinian bad guys with the "cream rising to the top". They are the strongest, smartest, and most charismatic... but they lack any long-term perspectives, they don't care about legacy, there is no future with them. So they can be incredibly smart/devious on a spur-of-the-moment basis... but, what if we simply spent the treasure instead of burying it?... CE boss silences that with his pistol

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

I just think of most Mad Max/Fallout Raider chiefs as CE. So, Darwinian bad guys with the "cream rising to the top". They are the strongest, smartest, and most charismatic... but they lack any long-term perspectives, they don't care about legacy, there is no future with them. So they can be incredibly smart/devious on a spur-of-the-moment basis... but, what if we simply spent the treasure instead of burying it?... CE boss silences that with his pistol

Would you say New Vegas' Caesar, with all of his Hegelian Dialectics, is chaotic evil? Or is there a "ceiling" of competence for most raider chiefs and "only" more lawful evil can rise to the tippy top?