D&D General How do you do smart chaotic evil?

[Toe Knee Nose]

That's not a whim. That's dedication to a cause, which is the opposite of whimsy.

No. It isn't. The charismatic leader wants to murder the lawfully chosen leader of the land and install himself on the throne so that he can then rob and abuse the land blind all for his personal gain.

This is pure CE. You've got this very romatic notion that freedom fighters are somehow always fighting dictators and reality couldn't be further from the truth. There are numerous real world examples happening right now.

Conan as written was CG. But, change him very, very slightly, and King Conan is CE.

 

[AlViking]

No. It isn't. The charismatic leader wants to murder the lawfully chosen leader of the land and install himself on the throne so that he can then rob and abuse the land blind all for his personal gain.

This is pure CE. You've got this very romatic notion that freedom fighters are somehow always fighting dictators and reality couldn't be further from the truth. There are numerous real world examples happening right now.

Conan as written was CG. But, change him very, very slightly, and King Conan is CE.

Seems like @Maxperson isn't saying that the cause must be noble but that the words "follows their whims" are the only words that matter as if a single sentence can describe every behavior ever taken by an individual. If anything is ever done that's not on a whim they can't be CN or CE. CG gets a pass because they don't have that phrase. Meanwhile it also contradicts the CE description that they are "A villain pursuing schemes of vengeance..."

Obviously I disagree, I don't think the text in the book goes into nearly enough detail or explanation and the phrase is taken out of context and given far too much importance since it leaves no room for scoundrels who wander the lands like Han Solo (he may or may not have changed alignments after a while).

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

Libertarians are chaotic good. They believe not only in their individual right, but for the individual rights of everyone else. They also believe in the rule of law to support and enforce the rights of individuals via a minimal(not non-existent) government.

CG isn't an alignment I said was crazy(as written in D&D) the way CN and CE are.

 

[Maxperson]

You completely dodged the question so I'll try again (removing reference to a political movement you latched onto) and a bit of clarification in the second paragraph.

I have a character I want to represent. They don't care about laws one way or another they just want to be left alone to do what they think is best - no regulation, no one telling them what to do. They may do some things on a whim but they aren't going to jump off a cliff because the idea pops into their head. They still accept responsibility for their actions and know what they do has consequences. They will still gather supplies in the summer because if they know winter is coming and they want so survive until spring. Perhaps they moved to a tropical island somewhere and never have to figure out where their next meal is coming from and never have to plan anything.

They certainly aren't lawful, they think laws and regulations are stupid, government and any external societal laws are ineffective and should just get out of the way. Maybe they want to be left alone and live in a cabin in the woods by themselves or with their family. They aren't altruistic, they don't care what other people do or how they live - people should figure it out for themselves. They aren't going to go out of their way to hurt someone but neither are they going to help someone in need because they think people should fend for themselves. They are not "good".

What alignment are they?

That would be neutral. They don't care for law, chaos, good, or evil enough to register as one of those. To be chaotic, you need to strongly believe in chaos. Thinking laws are stupid isn't enough. Someone who is chaotic would actively go out and fight against the oppression of laws.

edit - also, why is it that CG is stable while CN is insane? The only difference to me should be that the good person is more altruistic, helpful and considerate.

Because with CG the chaotic is tempered by the good so that they believe in the rights and freedoms of everyone, and will push to make sure folks rights are protected. CN is just pure chaos. The Mask would be CN. Take a look at the CN plane, Limbo. Jack Sparrow would be CN.

 

[Maxperson]

No. It isn't. The charismatic leader wants to murder the lawfully chosen leader of the land and install himself on the throne so that he can then rob and abuse the land blind all for his personal gain.

This is pure CE. You've got this very romatic notion that freedom fighters are somehow always fighting dictators and reality couldn't be further from the truth. There are numerous real world examples happening right now.

It's not pure CE. It's either LE, he wants to rob and abuse the land for his gain, so he's going to install himself as the law of the land to do it. Or it's NE, where he wants to accomplish an evil thing and will do whatever it takes to get there.

Also, don't twist my arguments. I acknowledged that there would be LE freedom fighters pushing back against dictators, and LE freedom fighters who want to install themselves as the new law of the land.

Conan as written was CG. But, change him very, very slightly, and King Conan is CE.

Agreed. He ruled by strength(Might Makes Right), but tried to be good to his subjects, so CG on the edge of CE. Most evil rulers don't rule like that. They use the support of the armies, intelligence folks, oppressive laws, etc.

 

[Maxperson]

Seems like @Maxperson isn't saying that the cause must be noble but that the words "follows their whims" are the only words that matter as if a single sentence can describe every behavior ever taken by an individual. If anything is ever done that's not on a whim they can't be CN or CE. CG gets a pass because they don't have that phrase. Meanwhile it also contradicts the CE description that they are "A villain pursuing schemes of vengeance..."

1e: "Chaotic Evil: The major precepts of this alignment are freedom, randomness, and woe. Laws and order, kindness, and good deeds are disdained. life has no value. By promoting chaos and evil, those of this alignment hope to bring themselves to positions of power, glory, and prestige in a system ruled by individual caprice and their own whims.

No schemes of vengeance.

2e: "Chaotic Evil: These characters are the bane of all that is good and organized. Chaotic evil characters are motivated by the desire for personal gain and pleasure. They see absolutely nothing wrong with taking whatever they want by whatever means possible. Laws and governments are the tools of weaklings unable to fend for themselves. The strong have the right to take what they want, and the weak are there to be exploited. When chaotic evil characters band together, they are not motivated by a desire to cooperate, but rather to oppose powerful enemies. Such a group can be held together only by a strong leader capable of bullying his underlings into obedience. Since leadership is based on raw power, a leader is likely to be replaced at the first sign of weakness by anyone who can take his position away from him by any method."

No schemes of vengeance.

3e: "Chaotic Evil, “Destroyer”: A chaotic evil character does whatever his greed, hatred, and lust for destruction drive him to do. He is hot-tempered, vicious, arbitrarily violent, and unpredictable. If he is simply out for whatever he can get, he is ruthless and brutal. If he is committed to the spread of evil and chaos, he is even worse. Thankfully, his plans are haphazard, and any groups he joins or forms are poorly organized. Typically, chaotic evil people can be made to work together only by force, and their leader lasts only as long as he can thwart attempts to topple or assassinate him. The demented sorcerer pursuing mad schemes of vengeance and havoc is chaotic evil."

The sentence here is MAD schemes of vengeance and HAVOC, and the context isn't angry. It's insane. Those schemes are disorganized and insane, and designed to create chaos, not orderly and lawful.

I've already said that acting on whim, might makes right, insane evil, etc. are CE. That out of context portion of the sentence you have seized on doesn't indicate "smart" CE at all. It's flat out insane CE.

4e: "Chaotic evil characters have a complete disregard for others. Each believes he or she is the only being that matters and kills, steals, and betrays others to gain power. Their word is meaningless and their actions destructive. Their worldviews can be so warped that they destroy anything and anyone that doesn’t directly contribute to their interests."

4e is the only one that doesn't put randomness first and foremost, but it does make the CE alignment far more insane than even 1e, 2e, 3e and 5e do.

5e: Chaotic evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust."

No schemes, just arbitrary violence.

Obviously I disagree, I don't think the text in the book goes into nearly enough detail or explanation and the phrase is taken out of context and given far too much importance since it leaves no room for scoundrels who wander the lands like Han Solo (he may or may not have changed alignments after a while).

I didn't ignore the mad schemes of vengeance and havok. I simply didn't take it out of context and so it fit right in with what I've been saying.

 

[bsss]

Never saw someone so committed to rules lawyering alignment.

 

[Maxperson]

Never saw someone so committed to rules lawyering alignment.

Then you haven't been paying attention to what I write. I'm arguing what the alignment section is written to show, not how I run alignment, which I posted in at least one prior post.

I don't even use alignment for players. They can use it if they want to, and interpret it however they like. All I care about is that they play a reasonably consistent personality.

 

[SteveC]

I'm not sure if this is mentioned but say, "I am helpful, am I not?" a whole bunch. (This is an NPC from the Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous game that is ... something else).

 

[AlViking]

Back to the OP. If you think a chaotic person only acts arbitrarily then chaotic alignments are pointless and don't represent any significant portion of any species. Even demons have a hierarchy enforced through violence and a demon that just randomly attacks other demons isn't going to last long.

So if that's your stance, no you can't have an intelligent CE NPC. Move on. Make them NE that ignores all laws, external definition of morality and does whatever they think they can get away with. Maybe they make decisions arbitrarily that may include sudden acts of violence that are not well thought out, even ones they may regret later. I would say a rose by any other name would still be CE but you do you.

Or ... look at what some CE monsters do for inspiration. Red dragons for example ".... take whatever they desire and burn to ash anything that stands in their way .... believe themselves to be the greatest ... of all creatures. To them, pillaging and conquering are their right .... other creatures are privileged to serve them." Another random monster (one I happened to be looking at for inspiration for an NPC) is the death knight "Champions of evil, death knights are armor-clad, skeletal warlords. Combining devastating martial prowess and blasphemous magic, these undying tyrants lead unholy legions against the living or brood in cursed citadels. Every death knight is haunted by a legacy of tragedy and dishonor that drives it to commit greater evils." Not sure how you can lead unholy legions is everything you do is arbitrary.

Demons are probably the extreme examples of an entire group of monsters having a CE alignment yet they have armies and commanders of armies. They still have rulers with goals and plans. The hierarchy is just maintained through fear and violence not by laws or pre-established hierarchies. That Vrock doesn't serve in the army led by a Balor because they respect the Balor's title, they do it because they're allowed to do much of what they want to anyway and if they don't follow rules the Balor will have them for lunch.