D&D General How do you do smart chaotic evil?

[Zardnaar]

Yet we're told that many drow societies are CE. So either your definition of CE doesn't match the designer's definition or ... well I'm not sure what the "or" would be.

If you want to be truly pedantic about it I suppose most "royalty" in the real world could trace their origin back to some warlord. But CE is cruel, capricious and people are controlled by fear and force. That doesn't mean they're nonfunctional or that they need to rely on others who reject everything they stand for.

We think of royalty in absolute terms.

Reality was they had to get the support of other elites to keep themselves in power while not provoking the masses to off with their heads. Or more likely have the masses support a different elite. N or LN.

An actual tyrant say LE. Even then you need to keep your scumbaggery within limits. Usually its something like rule somewhat well and lop the heads off anyone dumb enough to look up.

 

[AlViking]

We think of royalty in absolute terms.

Reality was they had to get the support of other elites to keep themselves in power while not provoking the masses to off with their heads. Or more likely have the masses support a different elite. N or LN.

An actual tyrant say LE. Even then you need to keep your scumbaggery within limits. Usually its something like rule somewhat well and lop the heads off anyone dumb enough to look up.

At one point for many it was just some warlord who was able to hold on a coalition through force and were able to brow-beat or intimidate others into supporting them. Through the years it became a legacy.

Not true in every single case but royal families didn't pop fully realized out of a god's forehead like Athena.

 

[Zardnaar]

At one point for many it was just some warlord who was able to hold on a coalition through force and were able to brow-beat or intimidate others into supporting them. Through the years it became a legacy.

Not true in every single case but royal families didn't pop fully realized out of a god's forehead like Athena.

Up to a point. Warlords still need support from their followers and/or local elites. They might get away with executing a rival but not the entire council or whatever.

Smart ones anyway. Bad ones end up dragged through the streets and dumped in the Tiber/sewer etc.

 

[AlViking]

Up to a point. Warlords still need support from their followers and/or local elites. They might get away with executing a rival but not the entire council or whatever.

Smart ones anyway. Bad ones end up dragged through the streets and dumped in the Tiber/sewer etc.

I think history, and current events in many areas, would disprove that.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think history, and current events in many areas, would disprove that.

NE can cover a lot of bases.

 

[AlViking]

NE can cover a lot of bases.

It can. I just don't think it needs to.

 

[Toe Knee Nose]

It's not pure CE. It's either LE, he wants to rob and abuse the land for his gain, so he's going to install himself as the law of the land to do it. Or it's NE, where he wants to accomplish an evil thing and will do whatever it takes to get there.

Again, no.

There is no "law of the land" in a dictatorship. The only law is whatever the dictator ... well.. dictates. That's WHY it's a dictatorship. If the country is ruled by the rule of law, it's not a dictatorship by definition.

Dictatorships are chaotic evil.

 

[nevin]

You completely dodged the question so I'll try again (removing reference to a political movement you latched onto) and a bit of clarification in the second paragraph.

I have a character I want to represent. They don't care about laws one way or another they just want to be left alone to do what they think is best - no regulation, no one telling them what to do. They may do some things on a whim but they aren't going to jump off a cliff because the idea pops into their head. They still accept responsibility for their actions and know what they do has consequences. They will still gather supplies in the summer because if they know winter is coming and they want so survive until spring. Perhaps they moved to a tropical island somewhere and never have to figure out where their next meal is coming from and never have to plan anything.

They certainly aren't lawful, they think laws and regulations are stupid, government and any external societal laws are ineffective and should just get out of the way. Maybe they want to be left alone and live in a cabin in the woods by themselves or with their family. They aren't altruistic, they don't care what other people do or how they live - people should figure it out for themselves. They aren't going to go out of their way to hurt someone but neither are they going to help someone in need because they think people should fend for themselves. They are not "good".

What alignment are they?

edit - also, why is it that CG is stable while CN is insane? The only difference to me should be that the good person is more altruistic, helpful and considerate.

Sounds very CN or CG to me either would fit. You've described a libertarian or a CG Loner who just doesn't like people.

Behaviors, mental traits, talents etc have nothing to do with Alignment. Alignment is how you believe the world should work. Not how organized, disorganized, insane, emotional or rational you are. Those things have nothing to do with alignment.

Insanity is not an alignment it's a condition. CG is an alignment that could quite easily be considered evil by Lawful alignments. They could simply kill bad people on the spot with no trial or any nod to law because "they needed Killing" It can be a very scary thing.

The only real difference between CG and CN should be that CG believes they can do whatever they want as long as it doesn't harm other people. (Though killing those trying to restrict your rights could well be ok depending on the circumstance). CN would believe they can do whatever they want and if it hurts other people that's ok. Not to be desired but thier right to not be regulated is more important than whether or not someone gets hurt. The problem is we've had far too many years of CStupid alignments and the myth and legend continues to poison too many games.

Crazy, hungry, afraid timid, unpredictable, and many other adjectives have nothing to do with alignment. 'The other guy who said disorganized people are chaotic aligned has confused alignment with chaos being generated by being bad at organization. Two completely unrelated things. A LG paladin could be a disorganized drunken slob. Not all LG paladins are successful and good at thier chosen profession. A CN mage who studies anything he wants no matter how much danger it causes could be the most meticulous and organized person you've ever met. He just believes he can do whatever he wants. Actions and habits have nothing to do with alignment. Someone earlier said Cruel for evil but a CE person could be the nicest person you ever met till it's in thier best interest to kill you, assuming they are not crazy. They won't shed a tear when they kill you, they might even enjoy it but killing wantonly gets people killed. Getting along with people gets you access to them and thier stuff.

 

[nevin]

Seems like @Maxperson isn't saying that the cause must be noble but that the words "follows their whims" are the only words that matter as if a single sentence can describe every behavior ever taken by an individual. If anything is ever done that's not on a whim they can't be CN or CE. CG gets a pass because they don't have that phrase. Meanwhile it also contradicts the CE description that they are "A villain pursuing schemes of vengeance..."

Obviously I disagree, I don't think the text in the book goes into nearly enough detail or explanation and the phrase is taken out of context and given far too much importance since it leaves no room for scoundrels who wander the lands like Han Solo (he may or may not have changed alignments after a while).

alignment is all about the belief of how it should be done. If what you are describing isn't driven by that it's not alignment. Any intelligent creature can have a greedy moment, a bad idea, an overreaction that causes chaos etc. that wouldn't be alignment it would be human behavior. Alignment is all about what drove the behavior. CE and CN people could be focused dedicated, meticulous and working towards some great power they want with one doing it for pure gain and the other doing it just because they want it. It's the motivation that makes it alignment not the observable behavior. A CN person could just be crazy and kill anyone who contradicts them. That's not alignment it's crazy. The CE person could do the same thing because people contradicting them make them look weak or upset them. From the outside it will look the same. but the actual alignment would be different. People will come to wrong conclusions often because they can't read minds. Motivation is what you have to understand to know if what is happening is alignment.

 

[nevin]

deleting post after rereading the post I was replying too