How do you envision bards?

[KidCthulhu]

Ah, now I get it. I agree. More feats for bards and PrCs are good. Giving the bard the same power to customize himself as a Fighter or Wizard has = good. I gnashed my teeth for years trying to pick ANY feats from the PH that would be interesting for my bard. Finally made up my own, which ended up being almost word for word the feats in Song and Silence.

I think the Bard will continue to be like bittersweet chocolate and 20th century classical music. Not for everyone, but for those who love them, the best things ever.

 

[mmadsen]

The PHB Bard lacks focus because the creators of 3rd edition wanted people to be able to accommodate all of these types of characters into the Bard class with a little imagination. Sadly, it didn't work out so well. The lack of focused Bard PrC's makes it even worse.

There's quite a difference between a class flexible enough to handle many types of characters (e.g. the Fighter as Knight, Archer, Pikeman, etc.) and a class that forces a character to be mediocre at a whole slew of things (e.g. the Bard as "Jack of all trades").

Mechanically, most bard subtypes could be variant Rogues; they're guys with a wide range of worldly skills (e.g. Gather Information, Knowledge[History], etc.). With a good Bonus Feat list, such a bard-rogue could be fun and useful.

The Celtic spellsinger, concept, on the other hand, is really just a Wizard/Sorcerer variant -- and would make a great Prestige Class for "mundane" bards.

 

[Florin]

The Knowers of Secrets. The bard knows things that other people wouldn't bother with the time to learn. So, bards should learn about things from music, to poison, to ancient lore, to local history, etc. Screw combat and spells, let knowledge be their sword and reason their shield!

 

[jollyninja]

that's all well and good, but rarely does knowing that a particular tribe of orcs tends to eat humanoid flesh and has the raised sword clenched in a fist that drips blood as it's symbol. their leader has an eyepatch and is beleived to be the mortal incarnation of their diety due to his unmatched combat ability, keep the bard's flesh from being eaten by the mentioned orc leader if his fighter buddy doesn't kill the leader. the bard is totally a support character. he can serve no purpose as the main source of anything but knowledge. I just think that the bard should have more skill points then anyone else. that would make the jack of all trades thing more palatable. other then the magic and the knowledge, the rogue currently serves as the best jack of all trades.

 

[Tsyr]

A warrior, a lover, a poet, a gadfly who defies the gods. A psychopomp.
A skald. A weaver of mighty magics, who can calm a raging sea, cause trees to bear fruit or bring down lightning from the heavens with his voice.
Orpheus, Vainamoinen, Taliesin, Finrod Felagund...now THEY were bards.

None of this namby-pamby, wishy-washy high mediaeval minstrel-rogue rubbish.

Bards should be Prestige Classes with nigh-impossible entry requirements.

Damn strait!

 

[Wuxia]

the rogue currently serves as the best jack of all trades.

Right. And the cleric: quite good as a fighter, very good as a spellcaster (better than a wizard, IMO), and not a slouch when it comes to social interactions, thanks to Diplomacy being a class skill.

 

[Wuxia]

They aren't for everyone, that I'll admit. And I do wish they had more "boom" spells on their list. But they are one of the best designed classes in 3E, and my very favorite to play.

What I would have liked is not more "boom" spells, but more flavor. Like their replacing material component by the need to play of an instrument, and the possibility to replace a focus by an instrument of the same value. It would not have taken much.

And 6 skill points per level would also have helped. Quite a bit.

 

[Wuxia]

Originally posted by Tsyr Originally posted by sepulchrave[/i]

A warrior, a lover, a poet, a gadfly who defies the gods. A psychopomp.
A skald. A weaver of mighty magics, who can calm a raging sea, cause trees to bear fruit or bring down lightning from the heavens with his voice.
Orpheus, Vainamoinen, Taliesin, Finrod Felagund...now THEY were bards.

None of this namby-pamby, wishy-washy high mediaeval minstrel-rogue rubbish.

Bards should be Prestige Classes with nigh-impossible entry requirements. [/B]

1st Edition bard, anyone?

Not every bard was an Orpheus or a Taliesin, though, no more than every wizard is a Merlin or a Gandalf.

 

[Wuxia]

that's all well and good, but rarely does knowing that a particular tribe of orcs tends to eat humanoid flesh and has the raised sword clenched in a fist that drips blood as it's symbol. their leader has an eyepatch and is beleived to be the mortal incarnation of their diety due to his unmatched combat ability, keep the bard's flesh from being eaten by the mentioned orc leader if his fighter buddy doesn't kill the leader.

I don't agree. Knowledge of an enemy gives you an edge which may allow you to beat him, even if he's much stronger. Think Sun Tzu's _The Art of War_. So the leader has an eyepatch and is believed to be the mortal incarnation of their diety due to his unmatched combat ability... So now you know you may beat the whole tribe not by killing everyone but by beating their chief in a single fight. Then the fighter can intervene. Killing the whole tribe he could not, or reaching the chief in the middle of it, but now, thanks to the bard, he has only one enemy to face, and he can actually reach it. Because the bard knew that a challenge would be met by this "invincible" leader. Once beaten, the whole moral of the tribe is down, at the very least.

The fighter wins, but the brad made this victory possible, and meaningful.

 

[der_kluge]

This thread concerns me - mainly because I've just made my first ever Bard.

We're starting a new campaign with a different DM, and I decided that I wanted to try a Bard - female human, to be precise. We're 1st level. I've made the character, but haven't played her yet.

I weighed my decision based on the DM stating that this *would* be a city-based game, and that there would be action IN the city. So, I went ahead with it. If the game had been more rural, or more dungeon crawl, the Bard would have been right out. Only after I was assured that a "social butterfly" could shine did I go ahead with it.

My Bard is absolutely going to suck in combat. First off, the DM changed some of the core rules on me, giving me basically only dagger and short bow as weapons. A 13 Dex and an 8 Str, means that she'll be using her bow most of the time, and only attack with her dagger in a life or death situation. But, combat isn't her forte. While he limited my weapon choice, he gave everyone an effective Commoner level 0, which meant that I gained extra skill points and hit points at first level, and he tossed out the max skill rank limitation.
My Bard is a complicated character, but one of the things from her history involves her ability to con people. I also took a feat from the Netbook of Feats called Skill Knack (which is basically Skill Focus reworked) that grants +3 to a skill (which Skill Focus should do anyway, IMHO), and put it on Bluff. So, she's a first level Bard with +13 to Bluff checks. She's also got some good knowledge skills, along with Disguise, and Gather Information.

But, mark my words, if we spend too many games in the middle of a dungeon, or in the middle of the wilderness, I will make a new character. The Bard will absolutely suck in those environments.