D&D General How do YOU flesh out a chaotic society?

Redwizard007

Adventurer
Again, I'm sorry, but defining Chaos as some form of warped Law just explains why actual human Chaos can't exist. Chaos societies that are interesting and strange need to be defined without any reference to Law. Which is hard given human minds!

Yeah, that example was hard for me to follow too. This would be a much better conversation in person, and probably withbeer.

I may have pulled something of interest from the last couple posts that seems to gel with an idea I've had in the past. Chaotic nations, and I mean truly chaos infused nation states, are probably an absurdity, but on the sliding scale that is the Law/Chaos axis smaller truly chaotic group's could actually be fairly easy. Teenage boys would be my penultimate example. Small tribes, hippy communes, mining towns, even modern political rallies would probably be good places to start looking for examples.

As for more chaotic nation states, I can't remember ever seeing one in a published setting. There is probably a reason for that. Someone else mentioned democracies up-thread. I suppose monarchies in constant turmoil could also qualify. In theory, even a nominal anarchy could qualify if it managed to hold together somehow and was unattractive as a target of conquest. The only real requirement would be a lack of predictably and structure.
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I'm sorry, but your definition of Chaos is incoherent, and you say so in the above quote! Requiring "plenty of Law" is exactly why Chaotic societies do not exist in reality. "Individual rights and freedoms" is not Chaos, that's Law securing such rights. A Chaotic society must eschew any externally enforced Law, and then there needs to be a reason how such a society remains coherent. I gave an answer for elves, and that answer is weird, nothing that humans could implement.
As @Kurotowa points out though, there’s no such thing as a “chaotic society,” nor a “lawful society” because societies don’t have alignments. What we’re really talking about here is societies made up of Chaotic individuals. We can imagine Chaotic individuals would only tolerate laws which exist to enshrine and protect their individual liberties. A “Chaotic society,” therefore, would need to be far to the Liberty end of the Liberty vs. Authority aspect of the political spectrum.
 
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Sithlord

Adventurer
As @Kurotowa points out though, there’s no such thing as a “chaotic society,” not a “lawful society” because societies don’t have alignments. What we’re really talking about here is societies made up of Chaotic individuals. We can imagine Chaotic individuals would only tolerate laws which exist to enshrine and protect their individual liberties. A “Chaotic society,” therefore, would need to be far to the Liberty end of the Liberty vs. Authority aspect of the political spectrum.
Not sure I agree philosophically, but I agree pragmatically. Any attempt to disagree would get bogged down in semantics and disagreeing on definitions. And that’s because pragmatically you are so spot on.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Not sure I agree philosophically, but I agree pragmatically. Any attempt to disagree would get bogged down in semantics and disagreeing on definitions. And that’s because pragmatically you are so spot on.
If I recall correctly, you conceive of Law vs. Chaos as equivalent to Deontology vs. Consequentialism, no? I can certainly see how that would lead you to disagree with me philosophically. Though I dare say it is a very idiosyncratic view of Law vs. Chaos.
 

Sithlord

Adventurer
If I recall correctly, you conceive of Law vs. Chaos as equivalent to Deontology vs. Consequentialism, no? I can certainly see how that would lead you to disagree with me philosophically. Though I dare say it is a very idiosyncratic view of Law vs. Chaos.
These topics can lead one in circles. It is best to just pick a definition for game purposes and go with it. I know it’s hard to believe, but I am not all knowing. I’ve read a lot over the years on these things. None the last 5 years and little the last ten. It’s interesting, but nothing to get bogged down with imho. No matter the system murdering is wrong, stealing is wrong, dragons have to be saved, princesses slayed, and all orcs are evil. Just kidding on some of those.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
The various communal-farming, work-where-you-want communities (e.g. the controversial Israeli kibbutzim) may also be useful to look at, if you're wanting real-world analogues.

Beyond that, at least for me, the difference I see between "Lawful" and "Chaotic" values are as follows:
1. For Lawful folks (individuals and societies), having a clear process or procedure is important. If you're doing something well-trodden, it should be as consistent and principle-based as possible. If you're breaking new ground or rebuilding something, then the process should be well-documented and visible (LG would add "clear and understandable" as a goal, LN would probably focus on "efficiency" alone, LE would add elaborate "precision" for maximum exploitation). Chaotic folks care most about solving each problem on its own terms--tying yourself down even to a universal principle means you risk not being able to fully address the unique problems of each situation. As a result, chaotic solutions tend to be quixotic, sometimes even seeming contradictory, because they're almost purely about context and making a judgment call, which may vary from one case to another for subtle or ill-defined reasons.

On this axis, a Lawful society is somewhat more like the "civil law" structure, where laws are codified thoroughly, and exclusively, by legislators and judges "merely" establish facts and then determine what the law require, while a Chaotic society is somewhat more like the "common law" structure, where laws originate from legislators but get reviewed and interpreted by judges, leading to previous precedent that is generally only overturned when a case establishes a break in the context compared to the original.

2. Lawful folks have more "bright lines" they won't cross. It's harder to come up with things that a Chaotic person would ABSOLUTELY NEVER EVER do, no matter what. Thus, a Chaotic society is one where even particularly strong norms or values are always at least a little bit more inherently open to transgression. You see this contrast most strongly in LE vs CE, where CE is often portrayed as wild and unpredictable in its villainy, while LE is portrayed as the "magnificent bastard" alignment. Yes, both of them can and will do evil, but the Lawful Evil person can be appealed to on the grounds of Lawful limits, whereas the only thing you can really appeal to with the CE person is whatever personal goals they happen to have--there's no transcendent appeal you can make to something "beyond" the CE person and their goals. When considering LG vs CG, it's more fuzzy (because CG has stuff it won't do because doing so would be evil, but is otherwise usually pretty open to any method that "gets the job done"), but there's still a sense of something in there. An LG person doesn't just want to achieve good, they want to achieve it the right way; there's concern about legitimacy of method, honesty, being "above board," that sort of thing.

On this axis, a Lawful society is one where there are things you Just Never Do, whether because of explicit legal restrictions, or because of firm and well-known social norms. A Chaotic society is one where people do what is necessary to achieve their goals, even if it's transgressive or improper; indeed, the very idea of "impropriety" is a bit daft as far as a Chaotic society is concerned.

3. Lawful folks put something of a premium on being justified in their actions. That is, to do something, you must have a reason, one that is preferably as independent as possible from emotional attachments or the like, that is robust enough to stand against rational critique. There may be several things a Lawful person or society would like to do, but won't because they're unable to justify it. (Consider, for instance, the concept of casus belli, as it often appears in strategy games: you must have a reason to go to war, even if you secretly manufactured that reason yourself.) Chaotic folks...don't really care about justification, but rather about...I guess "sincerity"? Do things because you mean it, not because you can "prove" that you "should" do it. Better to be earnest and wrong, or to repeatedly contradict yourself, than to dance on pretense and deny the facts.

On this axis, a Lawful society is one where people build justifications, and attack the justifications of their opponents in order to try to stop them. A Chaotic one pursues goals because they desire them, and accepts shifting goals as merely being honest with yourself and others.

4. Chaotic folks see all authority as transitory or (ironically, compared to the previous point) in need of justification. For them, "authority" is a thing that cannot, even in principle, simply be "given"; it must be earned, and it can quite easily be lost. Being appointed to a position of power confers nothing; only by demonstrably using that power in ways a given person approves of can merit respect and deference. Lawful folks, pretty obviously, see this very differently; authority is to be respected unless and until it is abused, rather than distrusted until the holder proves worthy.

On this axis, a Chaotic society is one where authority figures--as others have noted previously--frequently shift and change, and as a result the members of that society tend to resist the imposition of authority unless they personally develop a respect for those who currently hold it. As soon a it changes again, though, the cycle starts all over. A Lawful society, by comparison, invests the holder of an office or title with an inherent respect,

You'll note that many real-world things don't consistently fall on one side or the other here. Frex, some folks might not really care about being justified, but might want clear and well-defined rules and procedures within which to make their spontaneous decisions. Others may sit on different sides of even a single axis depending on context or scale. E.g., you can have folks IRL who think all police officers should be respected immediately unless they do something really blatant and heinous, but who distrust distant high-level officals, even though these people may never have met either the police officer or the distant official.
 


Aging Bard

Canaith
there’s no such thing as a “chaotic society,” nor a “lawful society” because societies don’t have alignments. What we’re really talking about here is societies made up of Chaotic individuals. We can imagine Chaotic individuals would only tolerate laws which exist to enshrine and protect their individual liberties. A “Chaotic society,” therefore, would need to be far to the Liberty end of the Liberty vs. Authority aspect of the political spectrum.
This is an interesting comment. From the legends of King Arthur to the realities of the U. S. of A., there is a goal of "a nation of Laws, not Men," that is, a Lawful society regardless of the people. So the concept of Lawful society exists. The opposite is not what I'd call a Chaotic society, but rather a Lawless society, which is not a society at all in the human sense. The question is can a group of people be united with a Chaos philosophy: dubious in reality, but I gave my proposal for how Chaotic Good elves might manage it.
 

nevin

Hero
Living in a modern 1st world country, I have some difficulty conceptualizing a truly chaotic society. That's not to say it is impossible, but I find that my Orcs, Gnolls, Bugbears, etc tend to feel too similar. How do you make them feel different? What sources do you pull inspiration from? What are some examples of fiction or world building that I can see of chaotic societies done well? Do you have any success stories?

Thanks for the help.
Look at ancient nordic , celtic and germanic cultures. In celtic society the warriors fillowed the chief if they believed in him. If they didnt the chief couldnt raise a warband. Watch vikings. If you can kill he chief you get to be the chief. But you better be bad ass or really popular or you wont last long. In good societies freedom will be valued. In evil the strong rule. Ironically it could mean tribes flip back and forth between ce, cn and cg from ruler to ruler unless thier are some societal rules and norms that prevent that.
 

nevin

Hero
This is an interesting comment. From the legends of King Arthur to the realities of the U. S. of A., there is a goal of "a nation of Laws, not Men," that is, a Lawful society regardless of the people. So the concept of Lawful society exists. The opposite is not what I'd call a Chaotic society, but rather a Lawless society, which is not a society at all in the human sense. The question is can a group of people be united with a Chaos philosophy: dubious in reality, but I gave my proposal for how Chaotic Good elves might manage it.
Well chaotic good society would be in the interest of protecting freedoms. Chaotic evil the strong rule the weak serve. Watch vikings youll see examples of both. Of course for any society you gave to have a set of norms that are followed because the gods said so or the king said so etc to be the glue to give the society some stability.

Or you could have a society of cn rovers who just take what they want ir need and move on. Say gypsies or barbarians Though i'd imagine. eventually everyone would come together and try to wioe out barbarians viking types. Gypsies would just go before they push everyone too far and move on to the next location. I think in a chaotic society family bloodlines would be a big thread holding things together. As i write thus i realize scottish border reiver clans would be a good example of a chaotic good society. Though none of thier nieghbors would have called them good people.
 

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