D&D General How do YOU flesh out a chaotic society?

[nevin]

I think there's a fundamental issue with the idea of a "chaotic society", in that a "society" is a long-term, large scale structuring of people. So, we are asking "what does a chaotic structure" look like, and that's hard.

There's two different forms we can consider - in one, the structure of society is chaotic, and in the other the behaviors of society are chaotic.

When a society is chaotic in structure, that means that whatever definable bits it has (families, clans, towns, guilds, etc) change and re-align rapidly and frequently. If it is a Chaotic Good society, they do this because that gets stuff done quickly and efficiently for everyone's benefit - they agree upon goals, and they each pitch in as is most effective, without having to be told by authority or tradition how it has to happen. In a Chaotic Evil society, this happens because everyone's trying to claw to the top the best they can, taking each and every opportunity as it comes up.

When a society's behavior is chaotic, the response of that society to events cannot be predicted. It can have a very structured process for making decisions, but for whatever reason, those decisions vary wildly from one moment to the next.

I think people are missing the fact we are talking about a society. Even if it subscribes to the chaotic ideals of freedom of the individual there will be norms and traditjons that bold the society together. Collective defense could be an expected thing of all those capable. Respect to the elderly, or not. A chaotic society could range from cannibals who do whatwver they want to a victorian society with gentlemans rules of expected conduct instead of laws. A healthy properly functuoning "chaotic" society might not appear chaotic from the outside. Freedom has nothing to do with stability, norms, or anything else. Id suggest replacing legal with lawful, and free with chaotic, cooperative for good, selfish for evil and inndifferent for nuetral when designing your sicieties in game

 

[nevin]

I don't think being Chaotic prevent societies having rules/laws, even complex ones.

I think it prevents them from being enforced consistently and fairly, and suggests that people are unlikely to even understand them consistently. A society with a ton of little, conflicting laws that were essentially enforced on the whim of the enforcer and where penalties were likewise variable could be chaotic. Or a society where laws were enforced secretively. If justice isn't both done and seen to be done, you're not going to get very "lawful" results. A totally non-hierarchical society with serious customs about how people behave could be chaotic, if, in practice, people frequently don't obey or feel bound by those customs.

Since we started with alignment as the guiding principle, chaotic would be more about personal responsibility, lawful would be more about legal accountability. From the outside they could look similar but its all about the principles and reasoning that build the common framework that hold the society together.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Since we started with alignment as the guiding principle, chaotic would be more about personal responsibility, lawful would be more about legal accountability. From the outside they could look similar but its all about the principles and reasoning that build the common framework that hold the society together.

I think we're talking at cross-purposes, which often happens with alignment. Further, many societies obsessed with individual freedom decide to pursue that freedom through extensive law-making.

 

[Flamestrike]

Living in a modern 1st world country, I have some difficulty conceptualizing a truly chaotic society.

India.

Have you been?

 

[Blue Orange]

Perhaps looking for a chaotic society is the wrong tack... chaotic monsters would be loners, non-social animals, living by their wits and scavenging.

A chaotic good civilization like the elves is tricky as no analog exists in human history...of course, elves aren't human.

In general for human analogs you'd look for groups closer to the band/tribe end than the chiefdom/state end of social organization...though actual tribal cultures often have pretty rigid taboos and the like. These would tend to be in more marginal areas IRL as states are very good at conquering territory, but in fantasy you could easily have a clan of villagers who rely on druidical spells and summoned animals to keep out invading forces.

 

[Redwizard007]

India.

Have you been?

I haven't had the pleasure, but it is on my list. How does... ... ... ... Hmmm...

I'm just going to PM you so this doesn't get flagged.

 

[nevin]

I think we're talking at cross-purposes, which often happens with alignment. Further, many societies obsessed with individual freedom decide to pursue that freedom through extensive law-making.

I think people confuse our modern democracies (term loosely used) with freedom. They are more of a compromise between law and freedom. But we probably are talking at cross purposes. Alignment is supposed to measure player morals, and 100 people will give you a 100 different answers for what each alignment means. It's really a bad measure to use against a society. For that matter the way it's implemented it's a bad measure against any intelligent being.

 

[nevin]

Perhaps looking for a chaotic society is the wrong tack... chaotic monsters would be loners, non-social animals, living by their wits and scavenging.

A chaotic good civilization like the elves is tricky as no analog exists in human history...of course, elves aren't human.

In general for human analogs you'd look for groups closer to the band/tribe end than the chiefdom/state end of social organization...though actual tribal cultures often have pretty rigid taboos and the like. These would tend to be in more marginal areas IRL as states are very good at conquering territory, but in fantasy you could easily have a clan of villagers who rely on druidical spells and summoned animals to keep out invading forces.

people keep trying to pin it down to one era or one type. The war of Rome vs Carthage, or Rome vs the Tribes of western Europe could be viewed as law vs Chaos. in America it first happened with the Articles of the Confederation, any state could veto anything. freedom was more important than strength of the country. In modern times the EU is set up with a similar model thus the many arguments they have on personal freedoms vs the US more romanesque system that we love to call a democracy even though it's not even close to a democracy.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I think it is a matter of who has political power. Chaotic societies invest political power in the strongest (or smartest or most magically gifted or most skillful) person. Whether it is the strongest orc or ogre or the mightiest elf sorceress in the forest, that is what keeps the society going. If the mightiest is defeated, either the next mightiest takes over, or the society collapses. A lot of times, this is an initial stage of a social order.

Lawful societies put power into positions, whether inherited, appointed, or elected. A king doesn't have to be the strongest person in the kingdom if there is divine right in kingship or if the army solidly backs him. An imp could be the ruler of the 9 Hells if the Rules of Hell said so.

Neutral societies are in between. You need a certain amount of personal power (or skill) to get the top job, but you don't need to defend it all the time like in a chaotic society. This could be a transition from chaotic to lawful society.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Without getting political, but I feel like everyone posting here lived through 2020, where we saw just how much of Western society is not interested in the collective good, nor even agree that's something that's more important than their individual freedom.

You'd best start believin' in chaotic societies, Miss Turner. Yer in one!

The answer is that is functions, kind of, so long as there are enough people who are trying to impose structure and order on it. They aren't necessarily listened to, and are often demonized or even actually threatened, but the rickety framework they create and sustain is enough to keep even a society focused on the individual over the collective going.