How do you handle evil?

[uzirath]

This is a difficult question to answer if you don't use alignment in your games. I have disliked the alignment system since the mid-eighties and ditched it altogether in 1990. I haven't used it in any edition of D&D since. And, of course, it doesn't exist in most other role-playing games.

In my various GURPS campaigns (my usual go-to system), PCs have a mix of personality traits. Some of them are more selfish than others. Some are more altruistic. Maybe some of them would land on the bottom half of ye olde alignment grid? I'm not sure. Usually, they evolve in unexpected directions over time. Most PCs generally become better people over the course of our campaigns. Though I have GMed for a few who succumbed to their baser instincts. I think all of them either died or retired from the adventuring group (usually becoming NPCs).

 

[Scruffy nerf herder]

I don't see why you would think they would be any different.

Google 'Hitler', 'Stalin', for starters.

I guessing your evil portrayal would fall into the category of 'silly'.

-I don't see how anyone could ignore the mountains of evidence that villains in fiction aren't made to be the same as real world villains. And heroes aren't real people either. They're expressive versions of a person that communicate themes.

-Oh so Stalin had super powers, a lightsaber, a very theatrical personality and he ruled the galaxy? You can't seriously try to tell me "oh they're so similar what's the difference".

What's the difference? Lmfao don't tell any fantasy fiction authors you think that, they'll be like "did I even accomplish anything with my work".

-You just quoted me talking about real world people and how they really are, and then made it look as if that's the "evil" I've been talking about. Yeah that would be silly if it wasn't a straw man.

 

[Jd Smith1]

I don't know if I've heard it in those terms exactly. Despite all the jokes about characters being murder hobos, most D&D groups I know of don't really care to have evil characters. At the end of the day, they want their characters to be heroes. And then there are other games where the PCs are evil. Vampire the Masquerade is a prime example of an extremely popular game where pretty much each PC was a villain. Is it really common for someone tell you playing an evil character makes you a bad player?

I've never heard it said that it would make you a bad player.

But for me, and this is just IME, wanting to play an evil PC is one of the red flags that I watch for when vetting players. IME, people who like to play evil PCs have less-developed social skills and often feel powerless in RL, and thus play PCs who are unrestrained in their actions. Those sort, IME, do not mesh well in a group.

As you noted, though, Vampire and similar-themed games are an entirely different matter.

 

[Jd Smith1]

-I don't see how anyone could ignore the mountains of evidence that villains in fiction aren't made to be the same as real world villains. And heroes aren't real people either. They're expressive versions of a person that communicate themes.

Not in my campaigns. Otherwise I wouldn't use the term 'evil'.

-Oh so Stalin had super powers, a lightsaber, a very theatrical personality and he ruled the galaxy? You can't seriously try to tell me "oh they're so similar what's the difference".

He ordered the deaths of millions of people. And he did have a very theatrical personality.

What's the difference? Lmfao don't tell any fantasy fiction authors you think that, they'll be like "did I even accomplish anything with my work".

-You just quoted me talking about real world people and how they really are, and then made it look as if that's the "evil" I've been talking about. Yeah that would be silly if it wasn't a straw man.

It's not a strawman, at least not on my end. You're trying to say playing an evil PC has nothing to do with evil, and that a cape and a silly sword are just too awesome to be truly evil.

I'm standing by my belief that your evil portrayal would fall into the category of 'silly'. At best.

 

[Jd Smith1]

Of course, we can turn to the thought-provoking works of experts to give some depth to the discussion:

 

[TheAlkaizer]

The way you describe uninteresting evil sounds the same as the issues with a player playing a lawful stupid (incredibly shallow lawful good) character. In both cases I would say that they're not real examples of either alignment.

The players are normally good because they believe in the commonly accepted good. The villains aren't evil because they're evil, they're evil because there are other things more important to them than the "common good". And what's a super crucial and interesting element is that the players sometimes will be presented with situations where their own convictions conflict with the common good.

Good doesn't feel good and evil doesn't feel evil unless there's real weight behind how characters think and what they do. What passes for "evil" a lot of the time any more resembles "natural evil", e.g. the xenomorphs in Alien.

The main thing tripping people up when trying to handle this while making stories is they can't see the separation between "natural evil", which is hideous to look at because it reflects how cruel and uncaring the world can be, and "villainous evil" where you're supposed to be troubled by how relatable a heinous person can be. The former is impersonal it dehumanizes. The latter is deeply personal it makes people think about what being human means.

You're absolutely right! You found better words than me to explain it

 

[MGibster]

How ever you choose to handle evil, do not touch it.

 

[Jd Smith1]

How ever you choose to handle evil, do not touch it.

View attachment 152464

Another great 80s movie.

 

[Malmuria]

It's incredible to me how most avid lovers of TTRPGs are big into fantasy fiction, but they don't really seem to like villains (except perhaps when they enjoy hating a villain), and especially hate the idea of a villainous party member. Villains are literally the bread and butter of fantasy and a big part of what sets the genre apart.

What's is some fantasy fiction that you enjoy where the protagonist is evil? Villains are a huge part of dnd, but usually as the antagonist, i.e. something for the heroic characters to overcome.

 

[MGibster]

What's is some fantasy fiction that you enjoy where the protagonist is evil? Villains are a huge part of dnd, but usually as the antagonist, i.e. something for the heroic characters to overcome.

I rather enjoyed I, Strahd by P.N. Elrod as well as Knight of the Black Rose by James Lowder which are both set in Ravenloft. Like Vampire the Masquerade, these books are specifically about monsters so I think your point still stands.