How do you handle Mordenkainen's Disjunction?

[Victim]

There are no countermeasures to MD. At least not any that don't cripple a character like always using your to counterspell just in case. The same divination spells that allow PCs to know who to avoid because they have MD also allow vile enemies to track down PCs and ruin their precious stuff. And having lots depth and personality isn't all that great if you can't do anything.

Disjuction would be broken even if it didn't knock out items. Say good bye to all the defenses needed to keep the uber-bad (or high level wizard) alive.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I generally assume this spell is a "last measure". It will not be used unless a caster has absolutely no choice but to unleash it. The magic item destruction is just too much.

I almost see the mage's in the fantasy world thinking the same way as Player's: "It is powerful, but to use it is to invite its use. There is an unspoken agreement to not use this spell."

 

[Cedric]

If we use the "expected wealth per level" guidelines - that's impossible. At 17th level you have 340,000 gp worth of equipment. That's a lot, but it doesn't quite pay for 17th level equipment in all of your slots to begin with.

The supposed wealth levels are really low compared to what PCs can actually do. But MDJ is designed based upon the idea that they will be used. If we use those guidelines, then keeping back-up equipment is simply not an option.

Even if you consider 25,000 for +5 armor and roughly 100,000 for a cumulative +7 weapon, that still leaves you with having spent only 1/3rd of your wealth. If you set aside 1/3 for "backup gear" and spend the other 1/3rd on utility items (haversack, rings, shields, etc). You could be well equipped and still have some reserve items.

I'm not saying you are...but maybe you've set your sights too high for what "properly equipped" really is.

I'm lost. How does this help you kill a shadow?

My point about placing more emphasis on the character than the stats had nothing to do with killing a shadow. It had much more to do with thinking of your character as being more important than the items he carries. Value the character, not the stuff.

That won't work either. At 17th level, all of your enemies can do this sort of thing. Furthermore, any Wizard who can cast MDJ can also cast Mindblank (it's even the same school). Played at all intelligently, you can't gain information from divination spells.

-Frank

Like WingOver suggested, gather your information by non-magic means. Or, understanding roughly what the npc is capable of, make arrangements to combat him on that basis.

If you find that at 17th level you just cannot handle npc's capable of doing those things...avoid them.

Cedric

 

[hong]

I just banned the spell, along with (nearly) all 9th level spells. Too much hassle to sort through them individually just to find the handful that aren't broken.

 

[green slime]

In the last campaign I played in, I was planning to make Disjunction my lead-off spell for any given battle, once we reached those levels. Too bad the game ended when we were 3rd level or so.

I don't really see it as a problem. Sure, you nuke their stuff. That just means that the take the now-"merely"-masterwork items and go bully CR 1-5 creatures for their loot for a few in-game months. Slaughtering tribes of evil humanoids would be easy for characters of those levels, and very profitable.

-Tiberius

You cannot be serious about it being very profitable at that level... And what an extremely tedious game... You think it is going to be fun to chase down thousands of CR1-CR5 creatures, for which you gain no XP, and only a few gold per creature, session after session? Thank goodness none of my players have similar ideas...

 

[Cedric]

There are no countermeasures to MD. At least not any that don't cripple a character like always using your to counterspell just in case. The same divination spells that allow PCs to know who to avoid because they have MD also allow vile enemies to track down PCs and ruin their precious stuff. And having lots depth and personality isn't all that great if you can't do anything.

Disjuction would be broken even if it didn't knock out items. Say good bye to all the defenses needed to keep the uber-bad (or high level wizard) alive.

No countermeasures?

It's a close range interruptable spell...

Fight from further back, it's a close range spell, don't get in close range. or,

Cast anti-magic shell on the Barbarian and have him wade into the caster, the chance of blowing away the anti-magic shell is small and you better believe that the wizard will NOT like standing toe to toe with a Barbarian in an anti-magic shell. or,

Hit the caster with a maze, then surround the spot he was on, when he pops back in, waylay the crap out of him. Make sure at least two people surrounding him who are ONLY readying an action to disrupt casting, while the others pound on him. or,

Have your cleric load up on self-combat buffs, then wade in with his VERY nice Will Save to pound on the caster. or,

Have your own Arcane caster prepare MDJ and ready an action each round to counterspell MDJ. or,

Bust out the Diplomacy skill and convince him that casting something that nasty would be a bad idea, also discouraging disintegrate's and the like. or,

Ready an action to hide behind your Cube of Force, blocking Magic. MDJ is not in the list of items that affect the cube, I'd rule it doesn't work against it, cause it can't get through the screen the cube put up. (I would also rule that it drops the screen, but doesn't get beyond it). That's a gm call though. or,

Find out what he wants the most, dress up an item to look like it, claim you have it, then stick together. or,

Give the hasted monk an item of Silence 15' radius and have him dog the caster's every steps, not letting him cast anything but silenced spells.

Will each of these work? Probably not every time, but each of them (depending on your gm and how he plays certain things) has a chance of working.

There are reasonable countermeasures to every situation within reason.

Cedric

 

[S'mon]

PCs don't use it very often, because they want all the magical loot.

NPCs presumably are thinking the same. So, presumably the NPC wizards want to get their grubby little hands on all those scrolls, potions, wands, etc. that are currently in the hands of the players.

About the only time I would see a wizard using this spell against PCs is if he has nothing left to lose - "You may have won, you stupid do-gooders, but one more step and I'll nuke ALL your magic items! I mean it". Could be an interesting situation.

Monsters that don't use magic items but have it as a spell-like ability could be brutal - but I can't think of any creatures that have this SA.

I agree with this 100%. It's a self-limiting spell: if you use it and you win, you've lost most of the loot. The only time NPCs will use it IMO is if

1.. They're going to lose anyway - in which case most would rather take the action to teleport away

2. The PCs have some ultra-powerful magic (maybe artifacts), destroying it is a goal in itself.

If PCs are likely to face MDs, a smart move is to leave a decent amount of magic equipment back at base. If it's enough to re-equip themselves as an NPC of equivalent level would be, they should be able to deal with most threats ok. A very kind DM could always use weaker NPCs with more gear for awhile after that.

 

[Storminator]

Three things...

1. Don't keep all of your eggs in one basket, have backup gear. Sure, it won't be as good as your main gear, but it'll be good.

My character has no where to put back up gear. If I had any, it would be on my person. In last weeks session, in fact, some one asked if I wanted a house. I looked at him strangely and said, "I don't even have pockets, why would I want a house?" So that wouldn't help.

2. Make sure your character is more than just a moving collection of equipment. Give him/her enough depth and personality to transcend whatever may be in the backpack.

That's great, but when you're saving the world, that sparkling personality is only so handy. I need to hit an AC 40, I need to avoid a +32 attack, and I need to do it a bunch of times in a row, or half the continent dies. Oh yeah, and I need to avoid MDJ.

3. Come better prepared. At those levels there are ample divination spells and abilities to collect information. If you find that the opponent you face has or may have a particularly devistating attack form or spell, find a way to neutralize or find a different opponent.

And sometimes it doesn't really help to know your foe is devastating. You simply have to get after him anyway. Should I have worried about the MD, the Miracle spell, Harm, Energy Drain, his vampiric dominate power, or his life stealing, energy draining, elf-bane sword? Didn't matter, I had to attack.

At any level of the game, 1st - whatever...there should be risk. Risk of death, risk of character loss, risk of equipment loss. It's a life threatening adventure, not an extended shopping trip.

Cedric

There's a difference between risk, ie the possibility you'll lose, and the near total certainty that your character will no longer add value to the group. That's where you go when you're a 17th level character equiped like a poorly planned 3rd level PC. You simply become unplayable.

PS

 

[Storminator]

I agree with this 100%. It's a self-limiting spell: if you use it and you win, you've lost most of the loot. The only time NPCs will use it IMO is if

1.. They're going to lose anyway - in which case most would rather take the action to teleport away

2. The PCs have some ultra-powerful magic (maybe artifacts), destroying it is a goal in itself.

If PCs are likely to face MDs, a smart move is to leave a decent amount of magic equipment back at base. If it's enough to re-equip themselves as an NPC of equivalent level would be, they should be able to deal with most threats ok. A very kind DM could always use weaker NPCs with more gear for awhile after that.

The last few foes we've fought have all been equiped with evil equipment, lich armor, black robes of the archmage, elf-bane swords, etc. There would be no loss to us if all that got disjoined. Similarly, our foes aren't salavating at the idea of looting our bodies, they just want us dead. MDJs fly.

PS

 

[Stalker0]

From most of the posts I've seen basically people's answers to it are:

1) The MAD approach.
2) Backup Gear approach
3) Ban it or lower the spell effect.

MAD doesn't work the same reason antimagic often doesn't work, its assuming the NPC's and the PC's are in the same boat, relying on magic items, and that's very much not true. Let's say I got a 20th level party against a Balor and his high evil priest of some dark god (and it doesn't have to be a balor, pick something less if you'd like).

Priest casts MDJ, and let's say the Balor and the party lose all their magic. So now you got a Balor fighting a bunch of 20th level gimp elves, humans, and dwarves. So... let me know how that turns out

The backup gear approach, means your intentionally limiting your own power to be prepared for something that might happen. Now that's a powerful spell, I've nerfed the party and I didn't even have to do anything!! But even if you do go the backup gear route, that's assuming you can get to it. Go back to the Mr. Balor situation, and remember you still have to survive him before you get to go get that backup gear.. and I doubt that gear is going to help you much against him.

Banning it or lowering is a "good" way to fix it as it actually does fix it. However, I really don't like changing spells just because its broken, I like coming up with roleplay reasons. NPCs not MDJ because they don't want to kill off PC items work alright for some encounters, but there are going to be encounters where the NPCs just don't care, they much rather see the PC's dead and gone even if it means losing some of their magic, and hell, they'll still get lots of magic (MDJ won't likely destroy everything).