D&D General How do you like your ASIs?
- Thread starter JiffyPopTart
- Start date
Li Shenron
Legend
It took me a while to understand that the question referred to racial ability score modifiers at character creation... usually when I say ASI (ability score increase) I mean those you earn every few levels up.
Generally speaking I don't care, because I think ability scores are overrated, just give me whatever scores and I'll play with what I got. But for the sake of the poll, I'd prefer the old idea of fixed bonuses + penalties. The reason is, that ability score modifiers don't exist in vacuum, but go together with the actual ability score generation method, so these "ASI" essentially change the averages (as well as the minimum/maximum starting score) but you still end up with a score array that other races can have. Almost all ability score generation methods (unless you want to go hardcore with "roll stats in order") pretty much allow you to flexibily arrange your scores array, therefore I see no reason for floating bonuses. I'd rather have a fixed modifier that immediately describes a net difference of the averages of races.
Generally speaking I don't care, because I think ability scores are overrated, just give me whatever scores and I'll play with what I got. But for the sake of the poll, I'd prefer the old idea of fixed bonuses + penalties. The reason is, that ability score modifiers don't exist in vacuum, but go together with the actual ability score generation method, so these "ASI" essentially change the averages (as well as the minimum/maximum starting score) but you still end up with a score array that other races can have. Almost all ability score generation methods (unless you want to go hardcore with "roll stats in order") pretty much allow you to flexibily arrange your scores array, therefore I see no reason for floating bonuses. I'd rather have a fixed modifier that immediately describes a net difference of the averages of races.
billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
You bet that’s out of D&D’s current design space. It could have a lot of downstream effects making the holy grail of game balance a lot harder.
I kind of wish they would do more with these ideas, but I also find it largely irrelevant to the racial ASIs question because I don’t think there’s any problem with them coexisting.
Its actually not.
You can do it is D&D's current design space.
It's however outside of a noticeable percentage of D&D fans' comfort zone.
Lyxen
Great Old One
Nope, it's not a question of comfort zone, it's a question of preferences (I like my fantasy races to be widely diverse, including in stats), respect ours, we'll respect yours.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
People don't make enough characters in their lifetime to see rolling hit that average. It takes a LOT of rolls for that average to show up. A lot of characters will be higher or lower than the average. The array is lower most likely because there is no randomness. You get the safety of guaranteed numbers, but in doing so you are giving up a very little bit.
If you raise the arrays and point buy, rolling needs to increase to keep it a bit ahead.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
30.4% want some form of fixed ASIs(3 categories)
39.3% want some form of floating ASIs(3 categories)
29.1% want no ASIs(1 category)
11.4% is other, which can be part of either of the first two categories, or maybe something else. I'm not digging through posts to figure it out.
Crimson Longinus
Legend
I don't think that is an useful way to look at it. You just lumped my most preferred (floating with restrictions) and least preferred (floating without restrictions) choices together. And observation that completely floating ASIs and no ASIs are basically the same is essentially correct. Both are about the species choice not affecting the ability scores at all.
Campbell
Relaxed Intensity
I'm really not a fan of the way ASIs as you level up currently affect the game. I would like to see them either removed or granted to more than one ability score. As is it results to even more specialization as characters level up when characters are already specialized enough at low levels. It also helps make the saving throw math even more bonkers at high levels.
Once either is implemented I would like to see some fixed and some floating at character generation. Reinforce tropes, but don't lock them in.
Once either is implemented I would like to see some fixed and some floating at character generation. Reinforce tropes, but don't lock them in.
Vince_Snetterton
Explorer
I preface my remarks with this: I have to concede that real world evolutionary biology simply does not work within the construct of the D&D stat generation.
Now, that being said:
I hate Tasha's for a number of reasons (not power creep, but power leap, in many classes and subclasses), but fundamentally, the floating ASI is totally ridiculous. It has long been established what power-gamers can do with it. I am coaching a new DM, and because stuff like it was allowed, he is now struggling to match combat encounters to the actual strength of the players (level 3).
But what burns me more is the silly notion that certain species can't have certain starting abilities that are higher than starting abilities of other species. To suggest that the weakest Polar Bear that survives into adulthood can be weaker than a chipmunk, or a human, is completely ludicrous. That is simply not how evolution works.
So to suggest that the strongest Gnome can have a higher strength than the weakest Goliath that survived into adulthood....well, equally ludicrous. But, as I prefaced though, evolution does not translate well into D&D. But under no circumstances does a Halfling start with an 18 in Str while a Goliath is 8.
I would suggest that the floating ASI can be allowed, but ONLY if every species has a unique base level of stats.
The only way floating ASI's can be applied is if two conditions are applied:
1. Each species must have a minimum level of starting stats, be it via the Std Array, 27 point buy points being applied, or even rolling stats (once again, a favourite tool of powergamers). A Goliath has to manipulate their stats so their Str and Con are a minimum of 10 at level 1.
2. No char, under any circumstances, can start at level 1 with a stat higher than 17, after all points, feats (I would completely ditch the Human Variant), and ASI's are applied.
Now, point #2 is easily applied, but point #1 raises the hackles of so many...too bad. It means that for the Heinz 57 species (sorry, think there actually 56), minimum species specific levels have to be established in 2 stats. Example: A Gnome must have Dex of 10 and a Int of 10. A Halfling must be Dex =10, Cha = 10. A Goliath, Half-Orc, and Dwarf must be Str =10, Con =10. Humans are a special case already, with a minimum of 9 in each stat. Which is very very close to fixed ASI's. I am sure there can be all kinds of debate about what stats must have minimum levels for each species, and this also messes with sub-species' stat bonuses.
So someone wants a Half-Orc with a High Int, or a Halfling with a high Str? No problem.
All creatures in the game start with 8 points, right across the board. Using the 27 Point Buy system, each creatures burn 4 points to get their two Species specific stats to 10, then they can burn the rest of the points as they like.
So smart Half-Orc applies 4 points from the 27 point buy to Str and Con, pushing those to 10 each. 23 points are left. 9 are applied to Int, pushing that to a 15. That leaves 14 points to be applied as the player likes. And THEN a floating ASI can be applied of a +2 to one stat, and a +1 to another stat, player's choice. So Half-Orc with a 17 Int and a Halfling with 17 Str can be created at level 1, but said Half-Orc is not going to start with an 8 Con or 8 Str, and there are no 8 CHA Halflings.
Now, that being said:
I hate Tasha's for a number of reasons (not power creep, but power leap, in many classes and subclasses), but fundamentally, the floating ASI is totally ridiculous. It has long been established what power-gamers can do with it. I am coaching a new DM, and because stuff like it was allowed, he is now struggling to match combat encounters to the actual strength of the players (level 3).
But what burns me more is the silly notion that certain species can't have certain starting abilities that are higher than starting abilities of other species. To suggest that the weakest Polar Bear that survives into adulthood can be weaker than a chipmunk, or a human, is completely ludicrous. That is simply not how evolution works.
So to suggest that the strongest Gnome can have a higher strength than the weakest Goliath that survived into adulthood....well, equally ludicrous. But, as I prefaced though, evolution does not translate well into D&D. But under no circumstances does a Halfling start with an 18 in Str while a Goliath is 8.
I would suggest that the floating ASI can be allowed, but ONLY if every species has a unique base level of stats.
The only way floating ASI's can be applied is if two conditions are applied:
1. Each species must have a minimum level of starting stats, be it via the Std Array, 27 point buy points being applied, or even rolling stats (once again, a favourite tool of powergamers). A Goliath has to manipulate their stats so their Str and Con are a minimum of 10 at level 1.
2. No char, under any circumstances, can start at level 1 with a stat higher than 17, after all points, feats (I would completely ditch the Human Variant), and ASI's are applied.
Now, point #2 is easily applied, but point #1 raises the hackles of so many...too bad. It means that for the Heinz 57 species (sorry, think there actually 56), minimum species specific levels have to be established in 2 stats. Example: A Gnome must have Dex of 10 and a Int of 10. A Halfling must be Dex =10, Cha = 10. A Goliath, Half-Orc, and Dwarf must be Str =10, Con =10. Humans are a special case already, with a minimum of 9 in each stat. Which is very very close to fixed ASI's. I am sure there can be all kinds of debate about what stats must have minimum levels for each species, and this also messes with sub-species' stat bonuses.
So someone wants a Half-Orc with a High Int, or a Halfling with a high Str? No problem.
All creatures in the game start with 8 points, right across the board. Using the 27 Point Buy system, each creatures burn 4 points to get their two Species specific stats to 10, then they can burn the rest of the points as they like.
So smart Half-Orc applies 4 points from the 27 point buy to Str and Con, pushing those to 10 each. 23 points are left. 9 are applied to Int, pushing that to a 15. That leaves 14 points to be applied as the player likes. And THEN a floating ASI can be applied of a +2 to one stat, and a +1 to another stat, player's choice. So Half-Orc with a 17 Int and a Halfling with 17 Str can be created at level 1, but said Half-Orc is not going to start with an 8 Con or 8 Str, and there are no 8 CHA Halflings.
