D&D 1E How do you play an illusionist?

[Lanefan]

Even if a 1 always fails, that doesn't really help. It's perfectly cromulent for a high-level Fighter to not even be fazed by a Red Dragon's -11 AC, but . Heck, it's possible (scarab of protection) to be able to save against spells that don't even have a saving throw!

Meanwhile, facing that same dragon, a spellcaster has (on top of 65% Magic Resistance, mind), base saves of:

Paralyze/Poison/Death Magic: 3, Rod/Staff/Wand: 5, Petrification/Polymorph: 4, Breath Weapon: 4, and Spells: 6.

It took me several readings of this to realize you're talking about the dragon's saves here, rather than the caster's when the dragon unloads on it.

So that's a 35% chance to have a 25% of being able to get a spell that doesn't fall in the previous categories to affect a dragon (assuming the DM didn't give their dragon any magic items to use, because why wouldn't they?).

Now sure, maybe Wizards aren't meant to fight Dragons, and I'll grant that this intersection of high Hit Dice, best save progression, and high Magic Resistance is pretty much the worst thing ever, lol.

Or maybe the Mage has to find other ways of helping beat the dragon. A Wall of Force or two in the right place(s), for example, to hem the dragon in and-or keep it on the ground. Buffs on the party. Getaway spells at the ready in case things go south and evacuation is needed. And so on.

At least until 3e gave us AC's beyond 32 and 50% miss chances, that is (brrr).

Never liked the 50% miss chances. Just jack up the damn AC and have done with it.

 

[James Gasik]

It took me several readings of this to realize you're talking about the dragon's saves here, rather than the caster's when the dragon unloads on it.

Or maybe the Mage has to find other ways of helping beat the dragon. A Wall of Force or two in the right place(s), for example, to hem the dragon in and-or keep it on the ground. Buffs on the party. Getaway spells at the ready in case things go south and evacuation is needed. And so on.

Never liked the 50% miss chances. Just jack up the damn AC and have done with it.

Well yes, that was my point, you are funneled into spells that let you avoid "save negates" and hopefully Magic Resistance- assuming your DM lets you acquire those spells!

EDIT: hit save too fast. I agree about miss chances. They make sense, but yikes, such a headache to deal with.

 

[Mannahnin]

It's kind of a wash, yeah, saving throws do get better and better over time, and being unable to make a saving throw is impossible- but that does relegate a huge swathe of spells to basically being unusable because of "save negates". Ways to impose penalties to saves are few and far between, and ways to get bonuses to saves are plentiful.

Now some might feel this is a good thing, to make casters more balanced, but all it really does is narrow spell choices to those things that can reliably do something in a world of crazy good saving throws on monsters and magic resistance being handed out like candy, lol.

Personally, I think "pass/fail" was a bad system for spells. Degrees of success so that spells have a wider band of possibilities- a bad save can turn you to stone, most people are simply slowed, really resistant ones might take a movement hit, etc..

Illusions, in particular, I think would benefit from such a system, with how well (or not) you save determining how long (if ever) it takes for a creature to realize that the illusion isn't real.

Agree on all counts, basically.

I do think one of the weaknesses of both 5E and 3E is the huge save disparities which show up between different characters, and different saves on the same character in some instances. Where at higher levels in particular, one can be easy while another is virtually impossible. I'm seeing some of this show up in the Dungeons of Drakkenheim campaign I'm playing in right now. We're 12th level and I think my Fighter/Eldritch Knight's worst saves are a +1 or +2, and his best is more like a +9 or +10. At this level enemy save DCs in the high teens or even approaching low twenties are a thing. Having a 50% vs a 10% chance to save depending on what's being targeted is a big difference.

But the availability of enormous bonuses to saves in AD&D combined with how good the charts get at higher levels generates a different issue, as you've ably articulated.

Your suggestion of letting spells have SOME effect still rather than just be negated by good saves is definitely a good one, and that's something I recall we saw more of in 4E.

Overall 4E probably did the whole saving throws (Non-AC Defenses) thing best, and my ideal system would probably look like a hybrid between it and 3rd. Maybe with a dash of the flavor from 1E.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Even if a 1 always fails, that doesn't really help. It's perfectly cromulent for a high-level Fighter to not even be fazed by a Red Dragon's -11 AC, but .

Typo? Assume you meant -1.

I would be very fazed by a -11 AC, mostly because it didn't exist!

 

[James Gasik]

Typo? Assume you meant -1.

I would be very fazed by a -11 AC, mostly because it didn't exist!

Are you sure about that?

 

[Cadence]

Misinterpreting the title...

I bet a mime could have a lot of fun messing with an illusionist.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Are you sure about that?

Yes! I am sure. Obviously, anything that refers to "Wizard" and "Priest" isn't really a source of official material for me.

 

[James Gasik]

Yes! I am sure. Obviously, anything that refers to "Wizard" and "Priest" isn't really a source of official material for me.

Oh I see, you're in the "2e isn't AD&D" camp. Got it. Then yes, sorry, -1 it is.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Oh I see, you're in the "2e isn't AD&D" camp. Got it. Then yes, sorry, -1 it is.

Well, I didn't mean to start the Original Edition War! In fairness, this is a thread about 1e Illusionists.

(It's not that 2e isn't AD&D, by the way. I would say that I prefer 1e to 2e for various reasons, but I also appreciate a lot of the things that 2e introduced, especially the settings. But as a general rule, I tend to talk about 1e and OD&D rules, because I appreciate byzantine complexity.)

 

[James Gasik]

As an aside, what is the lowest published AC in 1e? I know one of the demon princes has like -5. I'm curious about that now, because high-level PC's could get some really crazy numbers. Nothing like a Paladin with -10 AC and then their Protection from Evil aura on top of that!