D&D 4E How does 4E hold up on verisimilitude?

[GoLu]

If the game has dragons in it its completely normal that balls are cubes, adventurers don't have to train to learn every possible trade on earth, people regenerate by their own power and swords can only be swung in a certain way once a day, because as soon as the game has one thing in it which is not completely realistic it can be as silly as it wants without it making a difference....

Balls aren't cubes. They might be approximated as cubes to make life easier on the players, but that doesn't mean the characters see cubes. Same with hitpoints; good approximations for the players, but not real from the characters' points of view. Same with the grid map, or the way that so many things mysteriously happen in increments of 5% probability, or the way that 4:59 of rest isn't too helpful, but one more second makes a huge difference.

As for learning every trade... There aren't craft or profession skills, so there isn't really any reason to believe that the PCs get better at that. After a lifetime of fighting monsters (and/or getting closer to being a demigod), they do end up stealthier, more perceptive, more athletic, and just generally worldlier than a farmer who spends his life farming. But mostly, they are heroic entities in a world where that actually means something more than just strength of character, and so they get all kinds of little benefits from being heroic.

Basically, 4th edition is good at generating a cool game play experience for the people playing it, and good at generating events that, in retrospect, can be explained quite reasonably within the context of a heroic action story. But it doesn't stand up too well if you try to push at the game's internal physics. It's just not designed for that.

 

[Knightlord]

Must ... resist... urge... to ... quote.... Hong....

Allow me.

Derren,

"Try not to think too hard about Fantasy" (Indirect Quote from Hong).

And I did read your post, Derren. And the game is not about every other single person in the world. Its about you, the hero, the PC. And if someone wants to outshine someone else in some other area, then they can pick up a feat like Skill Focus or Skill Training. Problem solved.

Example: Everyone can use Perception, and it increases with level even if you don't use it. To be better than someone else (ie training yourself, in a roleplaying sense), then grab Skill Focus (Perception), for a +5 bonus no one else has.

So what if everyone's skills increase at the same rate. You're a PC (The Star character or Co-Star character), not an NPC (Background character/Supporting character). You're different.

 

[The Little Raven]

The rogue 1st level daily power which enables you to make an attack with your ranged weapon against every target in a 'close burst 3' strains my credibility a little.

Whether it is in terms of reloading and using your sling or light crossbow that quickly, or - for your dagger throwing rogue - how he manages to attack up to 9 people with his four throwing daggers

V for Vendetta, yo.

Or the ninja-killing minigame between levels in the original Shinobi.

 

[SweeneyTodd]

I think it's reasonable to say, in a game where the PHB says "You decide how to describe the appearance of the use of your powers", that if you honestly can't describe the effects of a power in a way you're happy with, you probably don't want to take the power in the first place.

 

[The Little Raven]

That's about as realistic as a rubber hammer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber_mallet

 

[Thasmodious]

I really wish people would read my posts. If they had, they would have noticed that the problem is not the power level but the skill points and that every adventurer is able to do everything (While every other person on the planet has to actually learn to do his job and does not pick up every possible skill automatically)

Adventurer's don't pick up every possible skill automatically. The skills on the sheet are the skills adventurers need and use (hence no craft: baskets or plow, till, and plant skills). Adventurers, through adventuring, get better at adventuring. I know that's an earth shattering revelation to some people, but I really don't get why.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Contrary to both those claiming "Oh god it's travesty" and those going "OMG IMAGINE HARDER WIMPS!", I think 4E is rather a mixed bag in terms of it's versimilitude and general amount of "forced suspension of disbelief".

I think in some ways, it's actually easier to suspend disbelief than other games. I find, unlike some others, that the presentation of HP and healing surges and so on is EASIER to swallow than the old "it's all injury and magical healing closes the wounds" deal. It's much more natural-seeming, and fits with the tone and style of the game well.

I don't see much, if any, problem with monsters have different powers to the PCs, either, even being built in a completely different way. That doesn't effect the versimilitude, in my opinion.

There are problems, however. The idea that powers simply operate as advertised regardless of the "actuality" of the situation is problematic for me, to the point where I'm not having it. I know my players feel the same way because I've spoken to them. The idea that players can simply describe a power "however they like" flies in the face of all versimilitude, for me, but luckily I have players who are always going to describe powers in the most logical, sane way possible.

The "quick and easy" treasure placement rules are so granular, that used without alteration, I feel they're a big hinderance to versimilitude. The expected GP amount of treasure/level is a hinderance to versimilitude but not new, so if you could hack it in 3E, complaining about it in 4E seems a little off.

The final big problem to versimilitude, for me, is the almost-pathetic, very much half-arsed "multiclassing" rules, which mean that effectively only certain specific classes will ever be able to do certain specific things. I have no doubt that later books will expand on and probably vastly improve these, but they're still deeply unenthusing at this stage.

Certainly, I think the versimiltude of 4E is lower than that of 3E. I'd personally rate it just above 1E (and slightly below 2E) in terms of "forced suspension of disbelief" (aka "buy-in") required. I can't agree that it's "all bad" though. When the outright most unbelievable things I've come across are physical powers likely to shove the Tarrasque and bizarre things like only being able to use one daily power of one item/day, then I guess it's not too bad.

I will say this - I suspect the majority of 4E "house-ruling" will be directed towards increasing it's versimilitude, unlike with 3E, where it seemed like most of it was directed to increasing it's playability. I suspect that says a slightly GOOD thing about 4E as a "fun activity".

 

[Obryn]

Contrary to both those claiming "Oh god it's travesty" and those going "OMG IMAGINE HARDER WIMPS!", I think 4E is rather a mixed bag in terms of it's versimilitude and general amount of "forced suspension of disbelief".

I think in some ways, it's actually easier to suspend disbelief than other games. I find, unlike some others, that the presentation of HP and healing surges and so on is EASIER to swallow than the old "it's all injury and magical healing closes the wounds" deal. It's much more natural-seeming, and fits with the tone and style of the game well.

I don't see much, if any, problem with monsters have different powers to the PCs, either, even being built in a completely different way. That doesn't effect the versimilitude, in my opinion.

There are problems, however. The idea that powers simply operate as advertised regardless of the "actuality" of the situation is problematic for me, to the point where I'm not having it. I know my players feel the same way because I've spoken to them. The idea that players can simply describe a power "however they like" flies in the face of all versimilitude, for me, but luckily I have players who are always going to describe powers in the most logical, sane way possible.

The "quick and easy" treasure placement rules are so granular, that used without alteration, I feel they're a big hinderance to versimilitude. The expected GP amount of treasure/level is a hinderance to versimilitude but not new, so if you could hack it in 3E, complaining about it in 4E seems a little off.

The final big problem to versimilitude, for me, is the almost-pathetic, very much half-arsed "multiclassing" rules, which mean that effectively only certain specific classes will ever be able to do certain specific things. I have no doubt that later books will expand on and probably vastly improve these, but they're still deeply unenthusing at this stage.

Certainly, I think the versimiltude of 4E is lower than that of 3E. I'd personally rate it just above 1E (and slightly below 2E) in terms of "forced suspension of disbelief" (aka "buy-in") required. I can't agree that it's "all bad" though. When the outright most unbelievable things I've come across are physical powers likely to shove the Tarrasque and bizarre things like only being able to use one daily power of one item/day, then I guess it's not too bad.

I will say this - I suspect the majority of 4E "house-ruling" will be directed towards increasing it's versimilitude, unlike with 3E, where it seemed like most of it was directed to increasing it's playability. I suspect that says a slightly GOOD thing about 4E as a "fun activity".

I "enjoyed" your "post." And I "agree" to a large "extent."

-"O"

 

[Otterscrubber]

"If you want real, step out your door, that's as real as it gets, from the sky to the floor..."
-Violent J, ICP

I have no idea why people play a FANTASY GAME and complain that it's not real enough. Its fantasy game... as in things are supposed to be FANTASTIC.
If you want to play a game with Magic, Dragons, Demons, Beholders, Living shadows, etc. etc. I think you need to calm down on the realism-nazi-ing.

(PWN, at will, )

Werd I honestly don't see why people have trouble with abstracting HP, when honestly we've been doing it ever since the first D&D character hit lvl 2 and for some reason was now able to be hit by 2 arrows instead of just one. You just didn't know you were doing it, but you were.....

 

[MeMeMeMe]

I "enjoyed" your "post." And I "agree" to a large "extent."

-"O"

I lolled.