D&D 5E How does the Monk perform? (and revisiting monk spells)

[Celtavian]

This rings a little false to me. Anybody can grab magic items, Monk could grab amulet's, rings, or bracers of defense to break twenty, or any number of other things to increase their combat abilities. But honestly, excluding magic items we get Fighters at 21 (Full Plate, Shield, Fighting Style), Clerics at 22 (Full Plate, Shield, Shield of Faith) Paladins at 23 (Full Plate, Shield, Fighting Style, Shield of Faith spell) and Barbarians at 24 (Level 20, max Con and Dex, Shield)... And most other classes chilling between 13 and 19. 20 AC is good, not absolute top tier I guess, but saying 20 is not good just... doesn't make sense.

It makes sense if you played a monk with an 18 AC at level 1 and still got smacked quite a bit, but didn't have the offense or hit points to take creatures down quick like fighters, barbarians, and paladins or the means to escape combat as easily as a rogue with Cunning Action after delivering a sneak attack.

For Example, to get that Fighting Style means skipping out on Archery, Dueling or Great Weapon Master, sacrificing a lot of potential offense. Casting Shield of Faith costs a spell slot and a concentration slot, and the Barbarian has to use just as many ASI's as the Monk to reach their top tier, and hit level 20.

Now you're talking. All things the monk can't get. An archery fighter gets an 18 AC if he wants it and gets to unload for a lot of damage with a bow from range, while the monk has to do melee to maximize his offense taking hits with a similar AC and fewer hit points for less damage with the limitation of ki. Great Weapon Master fighters in heavy armor, smiting paladins, or bear totem barbarians all do far better than the monk in combat.

Besides, Wisdom and Dexterity are also great stats for the Monk, that is all their damage and saving throws, which is something they will want to increase anyways that will also naturally increase their armor. Monks lose very little pursuing that AC, no more or less than any other class topping their stats does, and they have so many combat tricks already that even if they took zero feats they are still quite versatile.

They do lose out, when fighting stuff that doesn't have anything to do with wisdom or dexterity.

Magic armor and shields don't use an attunement slot. So the armor using classes can get some nice armor and not have to worry about using up an attunement slot. So they can get a ring of protection that stacks with their armor.

The monk stands out only with mobility. They can move better than anyone. Everything else they do can be done better by some other class. Their saves stand out if you make it to 14th level. But prior to that, they're like everyone else.

I played a monk. It was an underwhelming experience in a group of min-maxers. It had its moments like knocking creatures prone and cruising around the battlefield. It also had a lot of drawbacks like getting knocked down quite easily due to a lack of AC and low hit points. And limited offense tied to ki while other classes were generally doing similar damage without any such limitations. Even the paladin novaing was better than the monk going out all out.

It's not a monk can't be fun. I went multiclass rogue and it was a little better once I got Cunning Action and didn't have to waste ki to disengage. In many other areas it was a very lacking class that other classes overshadowed. Often even the cleric with spiritual guardians, spiritual weapon, and a cantrip or weapon was doing more damage. Then again the cleric is surprisingly impressive if you build them right.

 

[devincutler]

20 isn't that good, especially once you factor in magic items, spells, and fighting styles. Given the monk tops out at 20 unless he wants to use attunement slots on AC items, it makes it even worse at higher level. Not to mention while the fighter or other classes are getting feats to improve combat ability, the monk has to spend them on ASIs to max out his AC. Though I've found buying the Mobility feat is a more powerful defensive ability than a 20 AC.

First, why wouldn't a monk want to use attunement slots on AC items?

Second, spells can be cast on monks as well, can't they?

Yes, a fighter in plate with shield who chooses defensive fighting style will have an AC over 20. You found someone who could go all out to specialize in AC and barely beat AC 20. Huzzah! Of course, he's sacrificed damage output to do so.

Now, I never said AC 20 was the best possible. I said it is darned good at 6th level. And that remains true. Can a maxed out defensive tank fighter beat it...barely? Yeah. So what? It's still better than almost every other class can do on a consistent basis (so please don't tell me a wizard can cast Shield and top 20 for a round at a time....I know that already).

And Shield of Faith can be cast on anyone, so that's basically a wash.'

Look, I am not arguing one way or the other whether monks are great. You seem to be missing my point entirely, so let me try again.

At 6th level, given normal 5th ed magic item distribution, an AC of 20 isn't bad.

That's all I am saying.

 

[GrumpyGamer]

I played a monk. It was an underwhelming experience in a group of min-maxers. It had its moments like knocking creatures prone and cruising around the battlefield. It also had a lot of drawbacks like getting knocked down quite easily due to a lack of AC and low hit points. And limited offense tied to ki while other classes were generally doing similar damage without any such limitations. Even the paladin novaing was better than the monk going out all out.

A monk on its own does seem a bit lacking with a group of min-maxers, as its strength is in having lots of little abilities which fail to have the same big game splash of a larger focused ability - such as a Paladin's nova (which combined with a crit is a lot of dice). If I was playing in a mid/maxing group I would likely add a level of caster and try to get my hands on a staff that adds damage to your attack or allows you to cast damaging spells - Spider Staff, Staff Of Striking (does not require a caster level), and Staff of Fire would be great items. The nice thing about staffs is you can use them as Monk weapons.

Players can't mail order items, but I have found most DMs will work with players that are falling behind the party curve.

Edit: you can also add Staff of Defense to the list if the primary issue is one of AC.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I think Celtavian is is far underestimating the monk. Not calling him a liar or anything, but it does beg the question about how he was playing his monk. A monk still has a better AC than pretty much anything you'd be fighting. Not once did he mention stunning an opponent, which is HUGE, and something that no other class gets. You also can use dodge as a bonus action which means every attacker attacks you at disadvantage. That's roughly the equivalent of a +5 to AC. So that's what? AC 23? That's a lot better than any fighter or barbarian at the same lower levels.

So if he's telling me that he gets knocked down all the time? I gotta wonder why? Is he not using any of his ki abilities? Either he's not using the monk abilities, or his responses are a bit disingenuous are my only two conclusions I can come to.

 

[Bardbarian]

I find that most people ignore ki uses that aren't offensive in nature. I am a huge fan of bonus action Dodge, disengage, and dash. I am always wherever the DM doesn't want me to be. Granted I like to multiclass heavily as a player but my monk is making me think about single class for a change. Getting to the back line of the enemy, stunning one or 2 targets then moving out of harms reach is very tempting.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I played a monk. It was an underwhelming experience in a group of min-maxers.

This is probably going to be the case.

But sometimes I wish we would all tag our posts with things like "Optimization Levels Preferred/Utilized," "Relative Pillar Focus," and "Playstyle Assumptions."

Whether or not we are assuming optimizing DPR and AC, whether we are looking at standing values versus how high you can get with spells and magic items, and whether we are at all taking into account versatility, among others concerns, are huge considerations when it comes to communication and answering people's questions about "is X any good?"

 

[Sacrosanct]

I'll also add (and this is from my actual play):

shadowstep above that dragon clinging to the ceiling, flurry, and stunlock. Maybe technically it's true that I myself didn't do much, but I DID force it to go through it's legendary resistances. Who cares if the caster then did more damage in the encounter. It's because of me. And it's a team sport. There's a lot more you can contribute than raw DPR and still be one of the main game changers for that encounter.

 

[karolusb]

Because not every one uses Point By system some of use old school 4d6 drop one you can get hot on rolls plus class bonuses

You know what we called the guy with 2 18's back when we rolled stats? The cheater.

I love the elemental rewrite that was posted early. Just played a game to level 14 and it is a massive upgrade to the elementalist, thanks both to the added cantrips and the versatility (making them probably a close 3rd for most powerful monks in the PHB, as opposed to DNF). Even so, the monk seriously drops in both offensive and defensive utility at later levels (really noticeable before 11th, when I would ahve anticipated it). Dodge as bonus is great, but basically means you have given up on damage, stunning fist can derail an encounter, but unless you are dropping 5 ki a round you will probably rarely see it do anything, overall I saw more dramatic utility out of clench the north wind (though if you want to be a hold person monkey, monk is literally the worst class choice available).

I did enjoy playing a monk tremendously. The number of times I changed the entire face of an encounter (not always purely to our benefit) with shape the flowing river paid for the class.

 

[Chaosmancer]

It makes sense if you played a monk with an 18 AC at level 1 and still got smacked quite a bit, but didn't have the offense or hit points to take creatures down quick like fighters, barbarians, and paladins or the means to escape combat as easily as a rogue with Cunning Action after delivering a sneak attack.

I'm confused... First of all 18 AC at level 1 is phenomenal, two 18's in your primary stats at level 1 is a crazy good start.

But how do you not have the offense? Going off memory you can hit for a 1d8+4 (Quarterstaff, Martial Arts, 18 Dex) and 1d4+4 (Unarmed, MArtial Arts, 18 Dex) while fighter and everyone else is at best doing 2d6+4 or 1d12+4. Rogue Sneak attack is fairly good, Rapier would give them 1d8+1d6+4 but still, the monk's damage is almost overshadowing at level 1 and those stats.

Next level starts Ki and the monk truly shines IMO. You can choose more attacks (1d8+4+1d4+4+1d4+4 if they all hit) mobilty thru Disengage or Dash, or defense thru dodge. No class other than the Rogue can Disengage as a bonus, and I don't remember if there is any other class in the game that can Dodge as a bonus action. Monks can choose whether to go all into offense or defense while the Fighter Action Surge or Rogue Cunning Action are only one or the other

Now you're talking. All things the monk can't get. An archery fighter gets an 18 AC if he wants it and gets to unload for a lot of damage with a bow from range, while the monk has to do melee to maximize his offense taking hits with a similar AC and fewer hit points for less damage with the limitation of ki. Great Weapon Master fighters in heavy armor, smiting paladins, or bear totem barbarians all do far better than the monk in combat.

The monk is clearly a close quarters fighter, but with their movement "close quarters" can become relative. If we're talking adding magic items, let's look at one of the best monk feats, mobile. Monks don't need the extra movement (though it helps) monks take mobile for the same reason a rogue might, run into a fight, hit a guy, run out of a fight, all without spending ki on Disengage. The monk can even run in, hit two or three guys and run back out. Making monks the ultimate kiter by level 4.

In addition, deflect missiles allows you to cancel a ranged attack that actually hits you, and even turn it into an attack against the enemy as I mentioned above, which no other class can do to my knowledge.

Also, speaking of things the monk does get, innate magic weapons, innate walk on water or walk on walls, and essentially ignoring falling damage (level 4 slow fall reduce falling damage by monk level*5 which is 20 damage. 40ft drop is 4d6 max 24 damage, you'd have to fall 60-70 ft before being guaranteed in taking some damage... which another 2 levels of monk quickly cancels out.)

All of this before choosing a subclass and with decent AC and damage output. Sure they are a little low on hp, but they stack up well I think.

They do lose out, when fighting stuff that doesn't have anything to do with wisdom or dexterity.

Huh? Dexterity is the monks damage and AC, Wisdom is the saving throws against any effects they have. Your statement is like saying Warlocks lose out when not fighting things involving Charisma or Barbarians when not using strength. Could you please clarify what you mean?

Magic armor and shields don't use an attunement slot. So the armor using classes can get some nice armor and not have to worry about using up an attunement slot. So they can get a ring of protection that stacks with their armor.

I misremebered then, I thought most magic armors did require attunement to wear. Even so, just because the best tanks tank better doesn't mean the monk isn't still exceptional.

Also, the monk cheats magic weapons a little. A magic shortsword wielded by a fighter does 1d6 damage, on wielded by a monk can do 1d10 damage because of Martial Arts. So while a fighter may worry about losing damage to use a cool new weapon, any weapon a monk picks up, or even no weapons, all deal the same damage. Monks are jacks of many trades in combat, mastering none but offering a lot of different tricks to make up for it

 

[ClockworkNinja]

I like the overall idea of the monk class but everything about how 5e did the monk just irritates me more the more I examine, think about, and play with it. A few of my gripes and proposed solution:

-Mechanics
The densely written legalese of the martial arts feature confounds me to this day. Its like they took a rule from another RPG that had no relation to the 5e ruleset and pasted into the monk class. This separate rule has overlap with several existing rules (off-hand attacks, finesse property) but does not mesh with the rest of the system at all. I DM encounters and have had to repeatedly explain the Byzantine rule differences between "Monk weapons" and "Weapons monks are proficient with."

Other core Monk features also tend to be extremely limited and narrow in how they work with little to no room for improvisation or interpretation. Its like playing a spellcaster, but without the ability to choose your spells.


-Theme & characterization
There are several character tropes that fall under the definition of "monk", from the bare-knuckled brawling of real-world hand-to-hand fighters to the cinematic wire-fu of wulin movies, to the spectacular powers of Avatar: the last airbender.

The existing monk subclasses make an attempt at replicating these ideals but are too diluted to really accomplish it: for example, the way of open hand offers no bonus to things like improvised weapons or grappling, and even a level 20 Elemental master can only learn 5 not!spells (counting the cantrip) and guzzles ki to use them.



-The solution
My main proposal for a rebuilt monk is to choose a subclass at level 1. The core class would be a basic skeleton, with each subclass specializing in a different field:

• "Monk" core
  -Basic class chassis, gives unarmed attacks, unarmored defense, bonus to athletics and acrobatics.
  
  Subclasses:
• Brawler
  -Extra bonuses for fighting unarmed. Improvised weapon proficiency. Bonuses to grappling, shoving, and other physical control.
• Ninja
  -Stealth bonus. focus on nova damage, perhaps copied from the Rouge (assassin).
• Sohei
  -Martial weapon proficiency. Movement bonuses. High-level hains flight or flight-like abilities.
• Shugenja
  -1/2 or 1/3 Spellcaster. Not "features that work just like spells"- actual spells. Probably borrows spells from the Druid in the way that the EK borrows from the wizard.

I am (slowly) writing this up with an eye toward publishing on the DM guild, and would appreciate everyone's reactions to my idea.