How does the wizard compare now?
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Dice4Hire
First Post
Answer One: Yes, they are better than before. Being able to attack Will makes them one of the best in the game at attacking all three non-armor defenses. That is a big plus. In addition, wizards picked up some summoning, which is a nice addition, though I cannot say I think someone could play a pure summoner, though it is possible to minor in it. I also like that the wizard has picked up an escape utility and a few more encounter level utilities. Having all daily utilities really hurts wizards.
Answer Two: Are they as good at controlling as the invoker and druid. Yes, if they use dailies, but no if they only use encounters and at-wills. One bonus they have is the widest selection of implements in the game, even without picking up a new arcane implement. WIth that, it is nearly impossible not to find an implement or two that will make them more effecti e. Especially when weiling an implement in each hand, they can have a couple good tricks up their sleeves.
But all that said, I would rather play an invoker or a druid as I think both are far mroe varied classes with more tricks and things to play off of. Wizards still strike me as rather bland.
Answer Two: Are they as good at controlling as the invoker and druid. Yes, if they use dailies, but no if they only use encounters and at-wills. One bonus they have is the widest selection of implements in the game, even without picking up a new arcane implement. WIth that, it is nearly impossible not to find an implement or two that will make them more effecti e. Especially when weiling an implement in each hand, they can have a couple good tricks up their sleeves.
But all that said, I would rather play an invoker or a druid as I think both are far mroe varied classes with more tricks and things to play off of. Wizards still strike me as rather bland.
ppaladin123
Adventurer
The illusion spells added in Arcane Power provide for some serious control. Grasping Shadows is an amazing power to combine with psychic lock.
I agree that Wizards are (were) a bit weak in the encounter spell department but I think Arcane Power corrected that. There are now several encounter powers that blind, dominate, stun, and immobilize one or more enemies. Color spray remains a great option at low levels.
Wizards are still the kings of daily powers. Once you reach level 15 you can completely shut down (through sleep, domination, stunning, or various illusion effects) one enemy per encounter on a typical day if you use an orb.
I think the new illusionist and summoning wizards are highly flavorful. Arcane power corrected this problem. AP also finally allows you to create a elementalist wizard that focuses on one damage type (fire, cold, thunder, poison, etc.) almost exclusively.
I actually disagree with Dice4Hire about druids and invokers though. While druids are flavorful and interesting to play I find invokers to be totally bland and generic. They are mechanically sound but are probably my biggest disappointment with the PHB2.
I agree that Wizards are (were) a bit weak in the encounter spell department but I think Arcane Power corrected that. There are now several encounter powers that blind, dominate, stun, and immobilize one or more enemies. Color spray remains a great option at low levels.
Wizards are still the kings of daily powers. Once you reach level 15 you can completely shut down (through sleep, domination, stunning, or various illusion effects) one enemy per encounter on a typical day if you use an orb.
I think the new illusionist and summoning wizards are highly flavorful. Arcane power corrected this problem. AP also finally allows you to create a elementalist wizard that focuses on one damage type (fire, cold, thunder, poison, etc.) almost exclusively.
I actually disagree with Dice4Hire about druids and invokers though. While druids are flavorful and interesting to play I find invokers to be totally bland and generic. They are mechanically sound but are probably my biggest disappointment with the PHB2.
Mathew_Freeman
Adventurer
If I can get the character builder to update this morning, then my Wizard player and I are going to spend some time reworking his character.
Hopefully we'll see a big improvement. I've decided to follow a few other people here at ENWorld and give out Expertise as a free feat for everyone, so that's an instant +1 right there!
Hopefully we'll see a big improvement. I've decided to follow a few other people here at ENWorld and give out Expertise as a free feat for everyone, so that's an instant +1 right there!
evilbob
Adventurer
This may be a bit controversial, but I will be honest: wizards are now incredibly boring. I cannot say that Arcane Power didn't help: it did. But post-Arcane Power, it's just that much more obvious how boring wizards really are.
For one, you have a controller class without as much control as other controller classes, that is an off-striker that doesn't strike as well as the other controller classes, that just doesn't have the sense of builds that other classes have. You can hand me any wizard build and I can hand you a complete power and item list - and this doesn't change much no matter what class path you choose. The end result is that there is very little variation among wizards, which makes them seem even more cookie-cutter than the other classes.
A wizard is also one of the few classes that doesn't benefit much from a strong secondary stat. For example, a CoW invoker gains a lot from Con. A lot of powers key off their class path, and a high Con can really help. A CoP invoker, by contrast, gains a lot from Int - and they will be built rather differently and have lots of different choices available to them. Wizards gain only a little from their secondary stat, no matter what it is. More powers now key off of their path (up from ZERO), but it's still not a real difference. Staff vs. Orb vs. whatever - your secondary stat doesn't really define you like with other classes, and therefore wizards can have very similar stats despite having very different class paths and focuses.
On the other hand, wizards need ALL stats (except Str) at least a little bit! ALL wizards need at least a 13 in Con, Dex, Wis, and Cha. So you end up with a spike in Int and a dump stat in Str, and all other stats just bump around a bit. Every wizard class path could be played with the exact same stats and be fine. Sure, if you have a wand you might boost Dex a tiny bit more or something similar, but honestly wizards are the first class I've seen where your 4/8/14/18/24/28 stat boosts don't all go into the same two stats. Besides Int, you could hit one of many stats each boost. In other words: there's no clear focus as to what you're trying to do.
But most boring of all, there is still only one viable wizard build, and it's still broken. If you want to play a wizard, Arcane Power basically said: "oh look here's some summoning ideas and some illusion powers you already had for free and some other options and oh wait you're still just going to be an orbizard, aren't you." Wizards have GAME BREAKING daily powers and incredibly "meh" everything else. So exactly two or three times a day your teammates will roll their eyes as you destroy everything on the board, and then the rest of the day they'll ignore you. The total number of "vs. Will" attacks that lock down went up; the addition of cunning implements is now solid; you can even still wield your orb or staff in your off hand and gain bonuses from it. So what do you do? Well you can either play an underpowered class that suffers from having paths that are all exactly alike and not really do much damage or control, OR you can do all that AND break the game a couple times a day so you feel better about yourself. Which would you choose?
Believe me, I desperately want to love playing a wizard. I've been doing so for months, all with the hope that AP would come along and fix some of the most busted-up parts of this class. But honestly, AP made them worse. You still have tons of useless encounter powers that don't really do much and a whole ton of dailies that are so overpowered that they make encounters not fun anymore.
I mean, it's still not as bad as what Storm of Blades is doing to the game, but it's damn close.
For one, you have a controller class without as much control as other controller classes, that is an off-striker that doesn't strike as well as the other controller classes, that just doesn't have the sense of builds that other classes have. You can hand me any wizard build and I can hand you a complete power and item list - and this doesn't change much no matter what class path you choose. The end result is that there is very little variation among wizards, which makes them seem even more cookie-cutter than the other classes.
A wizard is also one of the few classes that doesn't benefit much from a strong secondary stat. For example, a CoW invoker gains a lot from Con. A lot of powers key off their class path, and a high Con can really help. A CoP invoker, by contrast, gains a lot from Int - and they will be built rather differently and have lots of different choices available to them. Wizards gain only a little from their secondary stat, no matter what it is. More powers now key off of their path (up from ZERO), but it's still not a real difference. Staff vs. Orb vs. whatever - your secondary stat doesn't really define you like with other classes, and therefore wizards can have very similar stats despite having very different class paths and focuses.
On the other hand, wizards need ALL stats (except Str) at least a little bit! ALL wizards need at least a 13 in Con, Dex, Wis, and Cha. So you end up with a spike in Int and a dump stat in Str, and all other stats just bump around a bit. Every wizard class path could be played with the exact same stats and be fine. Sure, if you have a wand you might boost Dex a tiny bit more or something similar, but honestly wizards are the first class I've seen where your 4/8/14/18/24/28 stat boosts don't all go into the same two stats. Besides Int, you could hit one of many stats each boost. In other words: there's no clear focus as to what you're trying to do.
But most boring of all, there is still only one viable wizard build, and it's still broken. If you want to play a wizard, Arcane Power basically said: "oh look here's some summoning ideas and some illusion powers you already had for free and some other options and oh wait you're still just going to be an orbizard, aren't you." Wizards have GAME BREAKING daily powers and incredibly "meh" everything else. So exactly two or three times a day your teammates will roll their eyes as you destroy everything on the board, and then the rest of the day they'll ignore you. The total number of "vs. Will" attacks that lock down went up; the addition of cunning implements is now solid; you can even still wield your orb or staff in your off hand and gain bonuses from it. So what do you do? Well you can either play an underpowered class that suffers from having paths that are all exactly alike and not really do much damage or control, OR you can do all that AND break the game a couple times a day so you feel better about yourself. Which would you choose?
Believe me, I desperately want to love playing a wizard. I've been doing so for months, all with the hope that AP would come along and fix some of the most busted-up parts of this class. But honestly, AP made them worse. You still have tons of useless encounter powers that don't really do much and a whole ton of dailies that are so overpowered that they make encounters not fun anymore.
I mean, it's still not as bad as what Storm of Blades is doing to the game, but it's damn close.
Kwalish Kid
Explorer
Wow. None of this accords with what I've seen or the wizard players I have talked to. The wizard has been doing an excellent job of controlling (and being all-around versatile in and out of combat). Yes, the dailies do work best, but aren't they supposed to?
Obryn
Hero
I'll go ahead and disagree
Now that there are Wizard-specific feats, and the Wizard's implement actually matters for some spells, and there's a wide variety of powers that target a wide variety of defenses... I kind of love them. I'd much rather play an Illusionist Wizard now than an Invoker or a Druid.
I think AP breathed new life into the class; they're only bland if you choose to make them bland. Right now, they have such breadth you can more or less make them into whatever sort of specialist you'd like.
As for the implements... You're right that a Wizard's secondary stats aren't quite as important as an Invoker's. However, the Wizard Implement Mastery abilities can easily be useful every single encounter... All of them are quite general, and all give the wizard a sizable boost for a single round.
I don't see where Wizards need 13's in all kinds of stats. They do if you want every wizard to qualify for every feat - but wouldn't that make them more homogenous, rather than less?
So yeah. That's my counterpoint.
-O
While I understand (yet disagree) with the rest of your premise, this one really confuses me. A large number of people complain (a LOT) about Paladins, etc. because they need "multiple high stats" to do everything they want them to do and here you are basically complaining that the wizard doesn't have that issue.
Depending on the Wizard, high CON gets you durability, DEX gives you initiative, etc. besides the class benefits of actually having a decent stat in something.
As far as I can tell, the typical wizard isn't quite as control-ly as the typical invoker or spell based druid, but it is a much better artillery piece. Its powers tend to have bigger areas of effect than everyone else, and its pure damage tends to be better.
Obviously in a power based game you can create a wizard who focuses on only the most controlling powers, and an invoker who focuses on only damage, but as a general trend, this is what I see.
I tend to feel that the wizard has some of the best feats, too. War Wizardly is a big one, as is Enlarge Spell.
Obviously in a power based game you can create a wizard who focuses on only the most controlling powers, and an invoker who focuses on only damage, but as a general trend, this is what I see.
I tend to feel that the wizard has some of the best feats, too. War Wizardly is a big one, as is Enlarge Spell.
yesnomu
First Post
Wizards are awesome. Wizards have always been awesome.
...That's really all there is to say! There's such a massive diversity of spells at all levels that it's really futile to talk about their "controlling" potential. I can say that they have powerful (and not just damage-wise) spells at every level, that will affect encounters. If you pick the pure damage spells only, yeah, you'll be kinda crappy. Luckily you never, ever have to.
Anyway, if you don't think a Wizard can be a great controller, post a build on 4th Rules and I can give you a hand. I'm really thrilled about where the class is now.
...That's really all there is to say! There's such a massive diversity of spells at all levels that it's really futile to talk about their "controlling" potential. I can say that they have powerful (and not just damage-wise) spells at every level, that will affect encounters. If you pick the pure damage spells only, yeah, you'll be kinda crappy. Luckily you never, ever have to.
Anyway, if you don't think a Wizard can be a great controller, post a build on 4th Rules and I can give you a hand. I'm really thrilled about where the class is now.
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