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How dungeons have changed in Dungeons and Dragons

tx7321 said:
I hit the wall as DM at 1st (the first time 3 rouge PCs tried to sneak past 5 goblins and a fight broke out (this would litterly have taken about 3 minutes in 1E, in 3E we were still at it for a half hour, and I was mentally frazzled (each orc had to role against each sneak) then keep up with who went who in order...and it went down hill from there (and as players we hit the wall at around 4th for keeping up with all the feats and skills bonuses to...at some point our DM started having only 1 or 2 monsters per encounter. The days of 30 orcs encountered were gone (not because they were lethal, but because no DM in their right mind would want to hassle with it).

I would have to say you are not cut out for it. I just ran a group of three second level characters through a module of kobolds. Our encounters lasted a few minutes ofr the simple ones of less then 5 kobolds. A big battle with a wall and 8 kobolds lasted longer, but it was designed to. And even a battle of 30 kbolds is no hassle for me. But again 3e isn't for everyone.
 

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Crothian "And even a battle of 30 kbolds is no hassle for me. But again 3e isn't for everyone."

Thats the problem, WOTC wants everyone playing 3E, but most people I know aren't "cut out" for 3E. Its slick on the surface, but when you start playing it, the mechanics quickly dominate the game (which traditionally is supposed to feel mechanic-less to the player). I realize some people prefer this, and others don't notice...but to those that do its a game killer. Thats why there's so much interest in C&C and now microlight 20.

PS, MerricB, are you an employee of WOTC? I'm just curious, you seem very well versed in 3E and other versions of D&D, and I haven't seen much if any negative comments about the game. Theres absolutely nothing wrong with that mind you, I appreciate that a game can be perfect for one person and not for another.
 
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PS, MerricB, are you an employee of WOTC? I'm just curious, you seem very well versed in 3E and other versions of D&D, and I haven't seen much if any negative comments about the game.

So wish I was! Can you imagine how many D&D products I'd be able to pick up cheaply? ;)

Actually, there are many facets of 3e I'm not fond of, but I generally don't engage in those discussions. Mainly because they're very minor, and irrelevant to how I play. The system works a lot better for me than some people, it seems.

I love D&D, and I have been playing since 1982 (or so). I've got a good collection of 1e through 3e material, though 2e is rather light, and it's nothing to rival diaglo's collection. :) I'll happily play or DM any edition of the game. I'm fascinated with the development of the game, and I try to pay attention to what is happening and what has occured before.

I admit I have a very good mind for interlocking systems - I'm a computer programmer, and I also play a lot of European board games. Elegant systems that function together appeal to me - which is one reason I detest the 1e initiative system. Elegant, it is not!

I'm amazed that a battle with 5 goblins took you 30+ minutes! I suspect that you were misapplying the rules; e.g. "each orc had to roll against each sneak" - not the case. If the rogue is flanking, then every attack is a sneak attack (nothing the orcs can do). If the rogue is hidden, then only the first attack is a sneak attack, and then the orcs automatically spot the rogue. (An advanced option of sniping allows the rogue to hide again, at -20 on the check. As one may imagine, that option only turns up in high-level play).

I rather wish you could see me run a 3.5e game so you can see how it goes. Hmm - I may see if I can set something up.

Cheers!
 


1E initiative rules are very simple. Role a D6 high role goes first (per side). Ties are simo, or use weapons speed adjustment. There's nothing confusing about them...nor is there anything as quick.

As for 3E, I was following the rules as written.
 

tx7321 said:
1E initiative rules are very simple. Role a D6 high role goes first (per side). Ties are simo, or use weapons speed adjustment. There's nothing confusing about them...nor is there anything as quick.

Err... no. That's not how AD&D 1e initiative works.

There was a recent thread about them, and there's a good document on dragonsfoot that explains them in detail. Suffice to say AD&D 1e initiative is quite complicated.

A few notes:
* On a charge, initiative is ignored, and the longer weapon strikes first.
* Spell vs melee weapon requires the comparison of the absolute value of weapon speed less losing initiative die against the spell's casting time to see who strikes first.
* On a tie, a dagger will attack twice against a greatsword's one attack.

Moldvay Basic initiative, which is what you describe, was simple.

3e initiative is quite fast: one roll for entire combat. Determine order for combat, and then away. Slower to set up, short for combats that go for several rounds. :)

Cheers!
 

grodog said:
I think those distinctions didn't exist as cleanly/clearly in OD&D and AD&D as they do today: there wasn't a separate storytelling movement in gaming, for example.

Yes & no. I think it was a large part of the development of the game. Look at early TSR adventures, it was all dungeon oriented. In fact, going into the wilderness required high level characters because the monsters appeared in much large numbers (potentially) and could range across a wider variety of "CRs." How zero-level characters travelled across the land was impossible a mystery ;)

The early wilderness adventures were there (Judges Guild even specialized in them), but they really started to catch on mid-1E with Village of Hommlet, the L-series, etc).

In actual play, groups varied widely. Many groups stuck to dungeon combing exclusively. On the other hand, I know of groups with very strong storytelling styles in the late 70s first hand. Admittedly, the 2nd styles of groups tended to wander much more often and further from D&D.

I think it was during the 2nd edition period that the split became very noticable between the stoytelling & roleplaying groups (which have differences, but are often lumped together and often crossover) and more dungeon crawl hack-n-slash or gamist groups.
 

A computer programer! Well, I can see why 3E would be a game you'd really like. :D


As to 1E initiative:

Merric, what you summarized above is only 1 interpretation on how 1E initiative works, and IMHO is not the best interpretation.

Another interpretation of BTB intiative:

(Note: A round is made up of 10 6 second segments (for a total of 60 seconds per round), it is assumed that all activities can be at least started within the first 6 segments). I should also be noted that the damage caused within a round can be the result of much activity preceding it (faints, perrys, accumulated minor scratches etc.)

1. Role for surprise if applicable (if none won)

*State intentions*

2. Both sides role a d6, you role for when your opponent goes within a 10 segment round. (so if A roles a 3 and B roles a 6, A gets his telling blow or begins casting on segment 6, and B gets his telling blow or begins casting on segment 3). If a PC has a dex bonus, that + goes as a negative to his opponents role.

Example: A (archer with 18 dex) roles a 3 B the swordsmen roles a 5, normally A wouldn't fire until the 5th segment, but apply his +3 bonus as a -3, so 5-3=2 so the 18dex archer fires his bow on seg 2, thus going first.

The effect is still, high role goes first (because the higher you role the later the other guy gets to act within the 10 seg. round). But in this way you know at which point in the round damage is done and spells go off.

Note also: Spell casters keep their dex bonus for AC until they start casting, at which point they must be still, and then regain it after the spell is completed. Also, a spell caster who starts a 5 segment spell on seg. 6 would not complete his spell until seg 1 of the following round.

When a person chooses to charge (and they are in range to do so), they are moving so fast that the opponent does not have time to react normally. In that case charging rules apply.

The only thing that is certain about initiative in AD&D is that there is no clear cut explination in the rule books, and thus, each DM should read those rules for themselves and come up with the best understanding they can. Do not fall into the trap of taking as gospel how others interpret these particular rules of the game (even if those individuals sound athoritative, they can be wrong) 1E combat rules are far from "cut and dry".

One of the great things about AD&D is that because the rules are so obscure and convoluted (as written), the DM can choose to use the interpretation that works best for him and still be playing BTB (assuming they are logical interpretations). This personalization of the game is actually one of its strengths (though I doubt it was intended).

Basically though, a DM who states, high role goes first on a d6, ties are settled with WSF or simo, is playing as BTB as anyone else. The rules don't spell it out.

Anyhow, sorry for the thread-jack. MerricB, if you want to discuss 1E initiative further, probably should start another thread of that title as this is completely off topic here. ;)

Anyhow, many DMs have a hard time with both dealing with the prep-time (with monster stat blocks, who could blame them) and running battles in 3E. So its only logical to conclude that part of the change in dungeon design reflects changes in how the rules effect its playability (this would come out in test runs of the modules).

One advantage of writing more outside adventures (vs. dungeon crawls) is that problems can be avoided or delt with in more effective ways outside (avoiding, flanking, attacking from above, evasion etc.) (thus shortening and simplifying battles. In a dungeon there is only one way to reach point A to point B, thats goind down the hall...in a forest or city there are likely more possibilities to get from point A to point B. Slugging it out can often be avoided all togheter.
 
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tx7321 said:
One advantage of writing more outside adventures (vs. dungeon crawls) is that problems can be avoided or delt with in more effective ways outside (avoiding, flanking, attacking from above, evasion etc.) (thus shortening and simplifying battles. In a dungeon there is only one way to reach point A to point B, thats goind down the hall...in a forest or city there are likely more possibilities to get from point A to point B. Slugging it out can often be avoided all togheter.

TX, I have to say that I think your theory is complete bunk.

The primary focus of 3e (like every edition of D&D) is on combat. It isn't on avoiding combat. Dungeons are still a primary part of adventures, although we've moved away from large megadungeons to a series of smaller dungeons with more defined goals.

Flanking and sneak attack are in the game to help the rogue be as effective as the fighter and wizard in combat, albeit in a different way. Evasion is purely to avoid fireballs and other reflex save spells, not to avoid combat.

Published adventures from Wizards are mainly set in dungeons. Although some have significant sections outside of dungeons, those adventures aren't exactly the norm.

  • Sunless Citadel - dungeon
  • Forge of Fury - dungeon
  • Speaker in Dreams - city
  • Standing Stone - wilderness/town
  • Heart of Nightfang Spire - dungeon
  • Deep Horizon - dungeon
  • Lord of the Iron Fortress - planar wilderness/dungeon
  • Bastion of Broken Souls - investigative (urban)/planar/dungeon
  • Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil - megadungeon
  • FR: Sons of Gruumsh - wilderness/dungeon
  • FR: The Twilight Tomb - dungeon
  • FR: City of the Spider Queen - urban(?)/dungeon
  • Red Hand of Doom - war/wilderness/urban/dungeon
  • Scourge of the Howling Horde - dungeon
  • Fane of the Drow - dungeon
  • Hellspike Prison - dungeon
  • Fields of Ruin - wilderness/dungeon
  • Dragondown Grotto - wilderness/dungeon
  • Expedition to Castle Ravenloft - urban/wilderness/dungeon
  • Eberron: Shadows of the Last War - urban/wilderness/dungeon
  • Eberron: Whispers of the Vampire's Blade - urban/wilderness/dungeon
  • Eberron: Grasp of the Emerald Claw - urban/wilderness/dungeon
  • Eberron: Voyage of the Golden Dragon - airship/dungeon :)

That's most of them.

Cheers!
 

tx7321 said:
One of the great things about AD&D is that because the rules are so obscure and convoluted (as written), the DM can choose to use the interpretation that works best for him and still be playing BTB (assuming they are logical interpretations).

:confused:





:confused: :confused:
 

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