How dungeons have changed in Dungeons and Dragons

[Hussar]

As is true of the Demonweb Pits.I agree.

In Demonweb Pits, there was no way to actually return home without defeating Lloth. Granted, you could go to demon infested/threated planes and help them, but, you couldn't actually leave the module until you went through Lloth.

In the WLD, considering that it's an entire campaign, it's no more railroady than saying, "Hey, let's play in Ravenloft." A somewhat different beast than a single adventure that you can never leave until you complete a single task.

 

[Raven Crowking]

In Demonweb Pits, there was no way to actually return home without defeating Lloth. Granted, you could go to demon infested/threated planes and help them, but, you couldn't actually leave the module until you went through Lloth.

In the WLD, considering that it's an entire campaign, it's no more railroady than saying, "Hey, let's play in Ravenloft." A somewhat different beast than a single adventure that you can never leave until you complete a single task.

Actually, high-level PCs who visit one of the planes that Lolth is invading could use planar travel to get back home, if I am remembering rightly. Also, I tend to agree that the "you can't leave" nature of the WLD and Demonweb Pits are exactly the same. Or playing in Ravenloft for that matter. Context and consequence are what make choices interesting.

RC

 

[Hussar]

Planar Travel spells are nerfed in Q1 IIRC.

And, since you can leave the WLD in a number of ways, there is a large difference between that and Q1. The only way to leave Q1 is defeat Lloth. There is no other way. To me, that defines a railroad. You either defeat Lloth or you die. In the WLD, you can leave about five different ways that are specified in the module itself. In no case, are you forced to face any specific threat or encounter in order to win the adventure. You have several choices - isn't that the opposite of railroading?

Add to that, you actually have plot coupons for travelling between the different layers of the Demonweb. To be fair, you can actually travel without those coupons, although it is difficult. The adventure does pretty much assume that you have the Platinum Egg and that you will open it at some point, since you need to unlock certain portals with the various plot coupons hidden within.

 

[Psion]

I'll have to check out Sands of Pain (I'm assuming its a large keyed underground dungeon with corresponding rooms)?

Not exactly. Its an investigation/chase/pursuit ending at a dungeon/hideout.

I have a review here:
http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=2009871

 

[thedungeondelver]

Planar Travel spells are nerfed in Q1 IIRC.

Strangely, though, holy word (reversed) will send good aligned characters home!

 

[Raven Crowking]

Planar Travel spells are nerfed in Q1 IIRC.

In the Demonweb, yes. But are they nerfed in the adjacent planes?

 

[The Shaman]

In the Demonweb, yes. But are they nerfed in the adjacent planes?

No, they're not:

"Each doorway is actually a gateway to an alternate world on the Prime Material Plane. None of these worlds is the original campaign of the player-characters, but since the gates open to the Prime Material Plane, a party may enter a gate to rest and recover spells. All spells may be obtained and cast normally while in one of these worlds." - Q1, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, p. 13

This makes getting back to the player characters' own world no more challenging than a trip on the Ethereal Plane (1e AD&D PHB, p. 120).

So much for, "There is no other way." :\

 

[Hussar]

What level spell in 1e allows ethereal travel? What level is the module designed for?

 

[The Shaman]

What level spell in 1e allows ethereal travel?

Plane shift, 5th level cleric spell, available to clerics of 9th level and above (1e AD&D PHB, p. 50).

What level is the module designed for?

"An Adventure for Character Levels 10-14" - Q1, Queen of the Demonweb Pits, front cover.


Addendum: In another thread, Hussar, you stated that Strahd von Zarovich was the first D&D monster in a published setting with character class levels. I replied that vampires were able to have character classes since the 1e AD&D MM was published in 1977. In fact, Q1 includes the 15th level magic-user vampire Vlad Tolenkov (p. 18), published three years before I6, Ravenloft appeared (Q1 in 1980, I6 in 1983).

 

[Hussar]

I stand corrected then. For some reason, I recall that there was a problem in using Plane Shift, but, as usual I misremember. Perhaps Q1 was less of a railroad than I thought. Doesn't really change the original point though which was that railroad modules didn't exist in 1e. They most certainly did.