How far can you see at night?

[Someone]

Elven archers at night: Deadly.

Specially in the open, when they can take full advantage of that. Mounted elven archers nocturnal raids would be almost unstoppable for humans, or any other race without low light vision, as long they stay out of Darkvision range.

So elves should abandon their forests (where after all anyone can hide) and try the plains. Looks like Eberron got it right with it's Valenar elves.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

I too have had issues with working out how far you can see at night. It is such a simple thing that I would have thought would come up on a semi-regular basis. I don't understand why the rules for this aren't clearly spelled out in the DMG or PHB.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Darklone]

Specially in the open, when they can take full advantage of that. Mounted elven archers nocturnal raids would be almost unstoppable for humans, or any other race without low light vision, as long they stay out of Darkvision range.

So elves should abandon their forests (where after all anyone can hide) and try the plains. Looks like Eberron got it right with it's Valenar elves.

You don't even need to be mounted. Rangers or druids will find spots in the woods to fire arrows at several hundred feet at enemies campsites. And nearly noone will have the mobility and the abilities to find them if they retreat quickly after one or two salvos. Hitting light armored enemies isn't a problem since hiding from these distances is easy and if they don't sleep or sleep in heavy armor, they can't catch the running elves the next day.

 

[werk]

I too have had issues with working out how far you can see at night. It is such a simple thing that I would have thought would come up on a semi-regular basis. I don't understand why the rules for this aren't clearly spelled out in the DMG or PHB.

Olaf the Stout

I think you must be making it too hard, or rather, you want it to more closely model reality than it does.

By RAW, either it is completely dark, and you can't see anything without a light source, or it is shadowy and you can see as far as you are able, but with limited clarity...20% miss chance. If it's shadowy, and the character has low light vision, it looks like day.

If you are in the dark, and others are gathered around a campfire, their campfire has a light radius, an area you could see inside unless it is concealed by something.



I think the answer to the original question "We know lowlight vision doubles how far you can see but what's the initial value?" the initial value is infinity with scaling difficulty (-1/10') and consideration to concealment.

Could someone standing in the dark see a campfire a mile away? Sure, but -521 to the spot makes it pretty difficult to pick out targets. Again, the system doesn't model reality, it's just simplified mechanics.

 

[VioletSamurai]

Specially in the open, when they can take full advantage of that. Mounted elven archers nocturnal raids would be almost unstoppable for humans, or any other race without low light vision, as long they stay out of Darkvision range.

So elves should abandon their forests (where after all anyone can hide) and try the plains. Looks like Eberron got it right with it's Valenar elves.

I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not. Just in case, I thought I'd weigh in.

The problem with elves moving out into the plains is that, with their long lifespan and slow breeding rate, they tend to be vastly outnumbered in any armed conflict, especially against races like orcs and goblins who breed like rabbits. Wide open terrain is great for ranged attacks, but it also allows an enemy with superior numbers to bring those numbers to bear and surround and overwhelm you. Dense forests, on the other hand, help break up those numbers into more manageable bite-sized chunks.

So overall, I think the elves will have a better success rate if they stay in the woods.

If you were being sarcastic, then count me amused.

 

[Jhulae]

Well, maximum spot distances for encounters and such are presented in the "Stealth and Detection" section for each terrain type in the SRD. For a general guideline I'd go with 1/10th that amount at night (based on the phase of the moon and such - more for full moon, maybe less for new).

That means that low light races would be able to see at that full amount on a 'normal' night.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

I think you must be making it too hard, or rather, you want it to more closely model reality than it does.

By RAW, either it is completely dark, and you can't see anything without a light source, or it is shadowy and you can see as far as you are able, but with limited clarity...20% miss chance. If it's shadowy, and the character has low light vision, it looks like day.

If you are in the dark, and others are gathered around a campfire, their campfire has a light radius, an area you could see inside unless it is concealed by something.

That sounds pretty reasonable. I think I will use those rules next time around. I still think that the DMG or PHB should be more explicit in spelling out just how far or well you can see at night though.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Darklone]

If you were being sarcastic, then count me amused.

Someone was not being sarcastic, he assumed superior mobility on the side of the elves. Not easy to surround someone who's faster.

 

[VioletSamurai]

I'll concede that speed is certainly a factor. Put those elves on horses and they would be the most feared skirmishers the world had ever seen.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Hmmm, I believe in Underdark (FR supplement) it states that you can see a light source up to 20 times the distance of light source. So a torch gives off a 20' bright light so you can see that torch up to 400 feet away. Something like that anyways. I'm going on memory and I am work so I can't double check this.

This may or may not answer your question but it should be noted.

If they're isn't a lot of background illumination light carries very far unless it's obstructed by an obstacle. You can see a lit match or cigarette from a mile or so away on flat open ground at night so long as there isn't background illumination for it to fade into.