D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[overgeeked]

D&D-like stories

I don’t want to play a “D&D-like” storygame. I want to play D&D. Whatever story happens to emerge from playing D&D is, by definition, a “D&D-like story”. Different editions produce different kinds of stories. 5E produces superhero soap opera. 4E produces action-adventure skirmishes on a grand scale. AD&D produces gritty survival stories of plucky adventurers risking life and limb to outsmart the monsters and flee with the treasure.

I think this might be where we’re talking past each other. 5E isn’t a game about emulating a D&D game. I get that’s how you view 5E. But you’ve gotta see how that’s a nonsense statement.

 

[AnotherGuy]

So, enough of that. What do I like about 5E?

The production values are generally good. The art is mostly good. Dis/advantage is a great mechanic, if a bit overused. There’s lots of cool race options. At-will powers…I mean cantrips…are great, if a bit overpowered. WotC is making a clear point of pushing multiculturalism and inclusivity which is amazing. The 3PP ecosystems is fantastic. And 5E is quite popular, so there’s no shortage of players.

I think one other massive draw is that the engine is VERY hackable.
You want touch attacks for ethereal undead, you can do it. You want slower healing, you can do it. You want to tie exhaustion to combat and exploration challenges, you can do it. You want weapons to matter, you can do it...etc

 

[Thomas Shey]

Is that an opinion or selection bias influenced anecdote? (I could swear someone brings those up as being things to be on the lookout for in these discussions.) ;-)

An opinion. I think a well founded one (I could unspool why I say that), but an opinion.

(Ironically, I don't think its a terrible base for certain kinds of cyberpunk game, in part because the way those are structured is often not that far from how a typical D&D game is).

 

[Thomas Shey]

For horror, reduce the HD to the next lowest. D6 =>D4, max DH to 9. There after +1 hp per HD type above D4 (D4 included). Monsters stay the same, remove the healing over night, all healing spells add in the optional rule of horror factor and voilà! It will work.
Does not do super? Well, a .12 gauge does 2d8. The average 10 level fighter has about 94 HP with 16 CN. This means that the fighter will take 10 to 11 shot gun shot before falling (on average). If this is not super... nothing is. Hey! A dynamite stick does 1d6 damage per stick with a maximum of 10. Your wizard can throw a fire ball at level 5 that does the equivalent of 8 sticks... and his fireball is still better than a hand grenade (5d6). And the most wonderful thing? A simple night sleep will remove all that damage you suffered. It might not do superman, but Batman can be done easily, Dr Strange can be done, heck, Cpt America is easy to do too! And in a super hero game, who wants to play the invulnerable character? It gets boring quite fast. No, you want to do the Iron Man (artificer), The Dr Strange (wizard, sorcerer), Captain America (Fighter, Ranger, Paladin) and whatever. Hey Spidey can be done too (arcane trickster, change the spells and make them transmutation and alteration, spider climb, web and so on.) If you get yourself to it, you will make it work.

Except, note, you've had to reweave a lot of the basic elements of the game to make it vaguely work, and it still required you to exclude a fair number of cases (and note, to assume post first level characters in the first place).

Basically, if you make it un-D&D-like enough, my critique doesn't work. Shocker.

 

[Fifth Element]

I don’t want to play a “D&D-like” storygame. I want to play D&D. Whatever story happens to emerge from playing D&D is, by definition, a “D&D-like story”.

Which means that D&D produces D&D-like stories, by definition. Which makes it a D&D-like storygame.

Different editions produce different kinds of stories. 5E produces superhero soap opera. 4E produces action-adventure skirmishes on a grand scale. AD&D produces gritty survival stories of plucky adventurers risking life and limb to outsmart the monsters and flee with the treasure.

The idea that each edition only produces a narrow type of story is untenable and should be abandoned. It seems to be biasing your view of various editions.

 

[Minigiant]

At the end of the 4-6 pretty easy encounters resource drain wasn't even a stumbling block. You had to push harder in 3.x. it wasn't 4-6 moderate encounters that strained resources.

It was a stumbling block for the poorly designed PCs the designers expected people to play and balanced the game on.

The second fans realized which feats, spells, and items were best, it went downhill.

But that's again less an edition thing and more about the growth of game design as a purpose

 

[overgeeked]

Which means that D&D produces D&D-like stories, by definition. Which makes it a D&D-like storygame.

Only if you ignore all the differences between traditional games and storygames.

The idea that each edition only produces a narrow type of story is untenable and should be abandoned. It seems to be biasing your view of various editions.

I didn’t say only. You did.

Those are based on years of play. After nearly 40 years of playing AD&D, about 10 years of playing 4E, and almost 10 years of playing 5E...I stand by all three of those assessments.

 

[Fifth Element]

Only if you ignore all the differences between traditional games and storygames.

You'd have to define both of those terms, of course. And you might get some pushback on that, since I suspect we're talking spectrum rather than binary.

Those are based on years of play. After nearly 40 years of playing AD&D, about 10 years of playing 4E, and almost 10 years of playing 5E...I stand by all three of those assessments.

Cool. Based on my years of play (35 years I guess?) your experiences don't line up that well with mine, which suggests that it's not just a product of the systems, but the interaction between the systems and the people you play with. I'm not saying that those editions cannot produce those types of games, I just find the clean delineations to be reductionist. You're generalizing too much from personal experience it seems.

 

[Helldritch]

Except, note, you've had to reweave a lot of the basic elements of the game to make it vaguely work, and it still required you to exclude a fair number of cases (and note, to assume post first level characters in the first place).

Basically, if you make it un-D&D-like enough, my critique doesn't work. Shocker.

o_Ô
You don't even modify it a bit! That is the beauty of it. You take the class as is. The only thing you have to modify is the schools of magic and be honest, who does not allow Eldritch knights and Arcane Trickster to simply pick up two schools of magic? I certainly do. It works quite well for a super hero games. And guns and explosive are already in the DMG! I invent nothing. Even the optional rules are there!

As for the modifications for the horror genre, again everything is already in place! No hp on rest? It's called gritty realism and a short rest is a day, a long rest is a week. And it is already in the DMG! The Horror/fear checkis there, so are the rule for injuries and madness and sanity! Everything is in the books. You just have to use them.

 

[Minigiant]

Personally I don't think any edition does horror well.

Older editions were so gritty and pushed multiple characters. So you didn't get the appropriate level of attachment.
Newer editions are straight up not built to manage the building terror of loss and horror of revulsion..

Horror isn't about being weak. It's about being weak, the difficulty of getting strong or even stable, the fear of the process being stopped by something shocking, and caring about it all.