D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Helldritch]

Well they're both things that can only really be done right it you make them yourself?

I don't see why this is so outrageous when you yourself considered the example hyperbolic. They're not real dying men unless I missed a post somewhere.

When you want to use an example, at least use an example that can compare to the one given. Hyperbolic taken to extremes such as these only shows that a reasonable position/example will not suffice to make your argument reasonable, sound and logical.

An hyperbolic that can compare to a reasonable one, will on the other hand, prove exactly that your position is reasonable, sound and logical.

Position: We need laws to protect the environments. Sounds goods. But you might meet someone that will say that these laws restrict commerce and so and so... By using the hyperbolic that once the environment is destroyed because there are no laws (or weak laws) no commerce will occur. You are using an extreme example that does correlate to the situation.

An hyperbolic statement/argument can convey a good example if used with logic and if it really correlates. Here the example given is simply not usable as it does not relate to same thing. It does seem to be, but it isn't.

Of course I did. That's why I mentioned it was hyperbolic out of the gate. It was to point out that two things can both be unfair while still encouraging someone to agree with one of them. At this point, I don't think continuing to explain that to you is useful, because I just don't think you accept it, and without that this conversation has nowhere to go.

See the comments above to see why your example simply does not work. It is not that I do not understand your position, far from it. But your example simply isn't sturdy enough to prove your point correctly.

Comparing a life and death situation to a hobby style situation can not be compared.
My example of going to the casino was quite up to the point.
Rolling for stat and going to the casino to bet money are both on equal terms. You agree on the rules (or theirs) and you play. It seems that only if you lose that all of a sudden these rules are unfair. No it would be unfair if by some luck you win and the casino decides that the win ratio you had was not acceptable to them and simply changed the rules. Or that because the player is a woman, the casino can at its discretion, decide to cut the earning in half or not. An arbitrary ruling is unfair. A fixed rule, isn't.

 

[GuyBoy]

Because the OP was about how the game has changed over the decades, not just how character creation has changed, I’ll throw in a ( probably in vain) attempt to widen the thread:
Is Monty Haul still a thing in 5e?

 

[Guest 7034872]

Because the OP was about how the game has changed over the decades, not just how character creation has changed, I’ll throw in a ( probably in vain) attempt to widen the thread:
Is Monty Haul still a thing in 5e?

I've seen it, sure; I even played in one once. I suspect it came from the DM being quite young and inexperienced.

 

[overgeeked]

Because the OP was about how the game has changed over the decades, not just how character creation has changed, I’ll throw in a ( probably in vain) attempt to widen the thread:

Is Monty Haul still a thing in 5e?

Depends on the context. If you restrict it to loot and treasure, it still depends on the DM. Though the lack of things to spend gold on and the generally higher amounts of gold rewarded for things seems to inevitably point games in that direction.

If you mean in regards to the power level of the PCs and their abilities, yes, 5E is very much a Monty Haul game by design.

 

[GuyBoy]

Depends on the context. If you restrict it to loot and treasure, it still depends on the DM. Though the lack of things to spend gold on and the generally higher amounts of gold rewarded for things seems to inevitably point games in that direction.

If you mean in regards to the power level of the PCs and their abilities, yes, 5E is very much a Monty Haul game by design.

Interesting comment about Monty Haul by design. 1E Monty Haul was very much about magic items; girdle of storm giant strength, staff of wizardry, vorpal sword etc, but 5e may be less about the magic items?

 

[overgeeked]

Interesting comment about Monty Haul by design. 1E Monty Haul was very much about magic items; girdle of storm giant strength, staff of wizardry, vorpal sword etc, but 5e may be less about the magic items?

5E doesn't assume you'll get magic items, so designs characters to have more stuff, powers, spells, abilities that are inherent to the character to compensate for the lack of magic items...then most DMs give out magic items anyway...because it's D&D...and about 1/3 of the DMG is magic items...so PCs are that much more powerful.

 

[billd91]

Interesting comment about Monty Haul by design. 1E Monty Haul was very much about magic items; girdle of storm giant strength, staff of wizardry, vorpal sword etc, but 5e may be less about the magic items?

It is, a bit, in the sense that there’s a limit to how many attuned items you can have at one time. There was no such limit in AD&D 1e and 2e. But it is more like 1e in the way magic behaves - being a real boost and not so much a scheduled increase as in 3e/4e.

Monty Haulism is a function of giving away a lot of, maybe too much, stuff for the effort and letting that drive campaign dynamics - usually an upward spiral, increasingly out of control. That’s generally edition design independent.

 

[Guest 7034872]

5E doesn't assume you'll get magic items, so designs characters to have more stuff, powers, spells, abilities that are inherent to the character to compensate for the lack of magic items...then most DMs give out magic items anyway...because it's D&D...and about 1/3 of the DMG is magic items...so PCs are that much more powerful.

Yeah, I think that's right. Here's a simple example of something I've seen at every single table since getting back into this in 2018: healing. Every party has had at least one character who can do a big bunch of healing, right? Yeppers, but then it has also happened that these parties eventually find their way to Ye Olde Magick Shoppe in which they immediately hunt down as many healing potions as they can stuff into their packs. Every party I've been in, this has happened. As best I can tell, no one even sees any unusual about it.

 

[overgeeked]

Yeah, I think that's right. Here's a simple example of something I've seen at every single table since getting back into this in 2018: healing. Every party has had at least one character who can do a big bunch of healing, right? Yeppers, but then it has also happened that these parties eventually find their way to Ye Olde Magick Shoppe in which they immediately hunt down as many healing potions as they can stuff into their packs. Every party I've been in, this has happened. As best I can tell, no one even sees any unusual about it.

Exactly. The magic shop has always been a thing in D&D games since way back. Not helped by video games really reinforcing that vibe. I think players want to minimize risk. Unfortunately, often to the point of becoming boring. But the designers made some bad assumptions about how the game is played and here we are. A lot of it was a hard reaction against 4E and the assumed magic item treadmill. If they'd find a nice middle ground instead of hitting both extremes in back-to-back editions that would be great.

 

[Helldritch]

Monty Haul...
Haven't seen that ugly head in a while.

5ed pretty much assume no magic items which is a sad thing. I would have liked to see magic items with bonuses to damage in the form of fire, cold, electricity, necrotic, poison, arcane, radiant, physical and thunder. Instead of having creature with zounds of HP, make their AC a bit higher (especially boss type) and it would have been way better. Now, with bounded accuracy, giving a single +1 item can become problematic for the inexperienced DM (and even some experienced ones). A single plate +1 with a +1 shield can become problematic. AC 22, add shield of faith, warding bond, haste let's be crazy blur means AC 25 (30 if disadvantage does work). Not impossible to hit, but pretty much hard even for the average monsters.

So MH does not come from the items a character can have in 5ed. It comes from feats, multiclassing dips and the fact that many classes are charisma based allowing quite a few crazy combination.

In 1ed, Monty Haul was easy to remove. Simply use Mordenkainen Disjunction. Anti-magic shell and so on. A beholder with enough minions could become the downfall of MH characters too. But in 5ed? The power is built-in the character, not its items. Items are just a bonus.

5ed isn't MH. It is a new ball game. The OP Character. No wonder most campaigns never go higher than 11th level. Most DM can't handle the amount of power the PC have in a reasonable way.