D&D General How has D&D changed over the decades?

[Minigiant]

They want plausible deniability.

"Oh no, the book gave me this spell that would be a universal war crime in-universe. It is no longer my fault for using it to remove all the items I gave you then regretted due to lack of foresight or adaptability to unforeseen usage" ~Adds Disjunction to every caster ever~

I find newer editions rather freeing as a DM.

If I follow the rules and a PC does or loses valuables, they can only blame themselves. The game favors them. 90% of the nonTPK deaths Ive seen recently are PCs ditching each other or making bad calls.

 

[Vaalingrade]

"Punishments." You're talking about drama. You don't want your backstory to be used as plot hooks. Unless it benefits you, right?

You'd be overjoyed if the DM used something from your backstory as a plot hook that lead to an adventure, or being the long-lost heir to a fortune, or something that lead to a magic item, or free feat, or boon, etc. You'd be all over that, right?

What part of 'I don't need rewards' did you read as 'I need rewards'?

If I have a sister in game I don't want her randomly kidnapped if she's just there to be an NPC I have a relationship with. I don't want to have to worry that every character I meet and go out of my way to befriend is going to be leveraged against me. If a DM keeps doing that I will stop having family and making NPC friends and will probably stop playing with the DM if they don't listen to my concerns.

 

[Cadence]

What part of 'I don't need rewards' did you read as 'I need rewards'?

If I have a sister in game I don't want her randomly kidnapped if she's just there to be an NPC I have a relationship with. I don't want to have to worry that every character I meet and go out of my way to befriend is going to be leveraged against me. If a DM keeps doing that I will stop having family and making NPC friends and will probably stop playing with the DM if they don't listen to my concerns.

What I'm hearing is that you need to have a secret identity...

Vigilante – d20PFSRD

www.d20pfsrd.com

;-)

 

[Remathilis]

Yes, I know it’s trivial to hook PCs into the world. That’s not my issue.

That’s my issue. I want characters who aren’t boring game pieces to move around in a faux boardgame style of play. Yet that’s what the majority of players offer up.

Then give the player something to play for.

If I'm invested in a character, I'll give you a backstory with NPCss, plot hooks, goals and even rivals to work into your game. I'm literally creating things to "tie down" my PC, but I gotta have the trust that it's going to matter at some point and that I have a reasonable chance of success at seeing it through. If the DM is going to ignore my ideas or dismiss them out of hand, I'm going to end up a wandering orphan because it doesn't matter. Likewise, if I feel my character is disposable and that death is far more likely than glory, you're getting a toon with no personality.

You don't get to have it both ways. I'm not pouring my heart and soul into a Frodo or a Jon Snow if he in return is a game piece to you to be abused and killed. If you want characters, foster character creation and player buy in. Reward with carrots, not with sticks. Don't set up games where backstory doesn't matter or character sheets are written on tissue paper and then bemoan players that build hard to kill PCs with little attachment. When you play adversarial, your players maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. When they trust you, they start playing from a less defensive posture.

I want to make clear "you" in this story doesn't specifically mean you personally, but whoever is reading this.

 

[Remathilis]

"Punishments." You're talking about drama. You don't want your backstory to be used as plot hooks. Unless it benefits you, right?

You'd be overjoyed if the DM used something from your backstory as a plot hook that lead to an adventure, or being the long-lost heir to a fortune, or something that lead to a magic item, or free feat, or boon, etc. You'd be all over that, right?

It's give and take. Let's say I give you an origin on how my PC was a minor noble that was sent to be an apprentice under a powerful wizard, along with an equally talented student from another family. Perhaps my PC's long term goal is to succeed his mentor one day or perhaps grow his family's importance, something the other student is jealous of. The dramatic thing to do of course is have the rival kill my mentor, use a powerful magical item he had to then murder or ruin my family, and establish himself as a powerful enemy for the PCs to find and defeat. The drama! The pathos! The yawn sorry, just another dead family, crushed long term goal and BBEG. Another vengeance driven PC.

Now clearly the rival is there to cause mischief, but I've seen a lot of DMs opt for the most dramatic thing possible with dead families, lovers, mentors, etc. And let's just say after several decades of that, I'm tired of avenging dead loved ones. So yeah, it would be nice to have my PC keep his family, marry his childhood sweetheart, succeed his mentor, and defeat his rival without it being another climatic to the death fight. Maybe I just want my PC to not be Batman for a change.

 

[Vaalingrade]

What I'm hearing is that you need to have a secret identity...

Vigilante – d20PFSRD

www.d20pfsrd.com

;-)

Won't help. The DM knows.

 

[Jer]

Now clearly the rival is there to cause mischief, but I've seen a lot of DMs opt for the most dramatic thing possible with dead families, lovers, mentors, etc. And let's just say after several decades of that, I'm tired of avenging dead loved ones. So yeah, it would be nice to have my PC keep his family, marry his childhood sweetheart, succeed his mentor, and defeat his rival without it being another climatic to the death fight. Maybe I just want my PC to not be Batman for a change.

Putting on my DM hat - what I like to do is have my players tell me what they think they'd like to see for their characters. Not a "I'd like to have a +5 sword" but more of a "here's why my background is what it is". We work out a little bit what parts they want to see played up and what parts are "hands off" material that is there for flavor but that they don't want to get into from a dramatic end.

For example, in my last campaign two of my players specifically called out their families in their background. One player was fine with drama surrounding their siblings but didn't want them killed off (they'd modeled them after their own siblings as it turned out), the other had a mother who they had put up high in the priesthood and told me that they'd be overjoyed to have some drama around her. She became a semi-major figure and then when she was later kidnapped by their enemies and they thought she'd been killed it was devestating for the character but not for the player, who was able to wring some drama out of the situation.

 

[Remathilis]

Putting on my DM hat - what I like to do is have my players tell me what they think they'd like to see for their characters. Not a "I'd like to have a +5 sword" but more of a "here's why my background is what it is". We work out a little bit what parts they want to see played up and what parts are "hands off" material that is there for flavor but that they don't want to get into from a dramatic end.

For example, in my last campaign two of my players specifically called out their families in their background. One player was fine with drama surrounding their siblings but didn't want them killed off (they'd modeled them after their own siblings as it turned out), the other had a mother who they had put up high in the priesthood and told me that they'd be overjoyed to have some drama around her. She became a semi-major figure and then when she was later kidnapped by their enemies and they thought she'd been killed it was devestating for the character but not for the player, who was able to wring some drama out of the situation.

Exactly.

This is the kind of collaboration I like. Boundaries are set, but not everything is spelled out. I feel I can relax and play without feeling like the DM is going to wring out every possible sorrow in search of "the drama".

 

[Thomas Shey]

I don't really need a reward for having a family, I just need a lack of punishments.

HERO does this great. You can choose to buy your family as DNPCs, meaning you're signaling the GM that you are good with them being imperiled or otherwise used against you. You can even adjust how frequent this happens. Or you can not buy them as DNPCs and the GM knows they're not necessarily up for grabs. You can even target specific characters for this. Your siblings are fair game but don't touch your wife and kids.

And you can go the opposite way, where you pay to have your brother as a Contact (because he's in the city Department of Water and Power, therefor giving you access to information and maybe physical access you don't otherwise have). And you can admix to suit (so the brother could be a DNPC and a Contact, providing you some information but sometimes getting in trouble you need to get him out of). But what combination you have there is a design choice.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yes, that's part of the point I was making.

Just figured it didn't hurt to emphasize (particularly the distinction between a loss that's noticeable, but not so crippling that it effectively takes the character out of play).