D&D 5E How Important is it that Warlords be Healers?

Should Warlords in 5e be able to heal?

  • Yes, warlords should heal, and I'll be very upset if they can't!

    Votes: 43 26.5%
  • Yes, warlords should be able to heal, but it's not a deal-breaker for me.

    Votes: 38 23.5%
  • No, warlords should not be able to heal, and I'll be very upset if they can!

    Votes: 24 14.8%
  • No, warlords shouldn't be able to heal, but I don't care enough to be angry about it if they can.

    Votes: 31 19.1%
  • I don't really care either way.

    Votes: 26 16.0%

Of course. I would probably not care, as for me it matters more that it is fun to play, but imagine classes being done away with... how many people would get mad just because "every D&D has had classes?" ;)

I think you'd just end up putting classes back in with some different name. They might be more loosely constructed, but 3.x classes are already pretty much a free-form pea soup in all but name.
 

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Dausuul

Legend
I don't see any need for warlords to be healers. When I've played a warlord, what I cared about was the class's access to tricks and clever tactics. Healing was just a bonus.

In general, I think it's a mistake to have dedicated "healer classes." I'm not sure it's possible to get away from it in D&D--the healbot cleric has been a fixture of the game since BD&D--but I would really, really like it if we could find a way to make healing widely accessible. Perhaps a feat that lets you perform magical healing based on your level? Then, instead of asking "Who's going to play the cleric?" you could just ask "Who's going to take the Healbot feat?"
 

Nemesis Destiny

Adventurer
I don't see any need for warlords to be healers. When I've played a warlord, what I cared about was the class's access to tricks and clever tactics. Healing was just a bonus.

In general, I think it's a mistake to have dedicated "healer classes." I'm not sure it's possible to get away from it in D&D--the healbot cleric has been a fixture of the game since BD&D--but I would really, really like it if we could find a way to make healing widely accessible. Perhaps a feat that lets you perform magical healing based on your level? Then, instead of asking "Who's going to play the cleric?" you could just ask "Who's going to take the Healbot feat?"

That is something I really liked about 4e and the multiclass feats for leader classes - many of them granted you a daily use of their minor action heal power. It was certainly no replacement for a full healer, but it certainly helped out if your party healer went down, or if everyone took such resources (i.e. you built around the assumption of no leader), then you could run a game with no dedicated healer with minimal change to the base assumptions.

The shaman multiclass, and the skald one (before they nerfed it), were even better for this. I would have liked to see more feats along those lines in the game.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
In general, I think it's a mistake to have dedicated "healer classes." I'm not sure it's possible to get away from it in D&D--the healbot cleric has been a fixture of the game since BD&D--but I would really, really like it if we could find a way to make healing widely accessible. Perhaps a feat that lets you perform magical healing based on your level? Then, instead of asking "Who's going to play the cleric?" you could just ask "Who's going to take the Healbot feat?"
That still makes the person a healbot. I don't see a huge difference between "Who wants to be a cleric?" and "Who wants to pick a class, take the healbot feat and spend all their time healing anyways."

And it certainly takes away a lot of the FLAVOR of healing. Instead of "I can heal because I channel the power of the gods, since I am their dedicated servant" you get "I can heal because...well, I took a feat!"

Then again, I hate multiclassing systems like 3.5e because I like characters to have clear themes.
 

Dausuul

Legend
That still makes the person a healbot. I don't see a huge difference between "Who wants to be a cleric?" and "Who wants to pick a class, take the healbot feat and spend all their time healing anyways."

Why would you spend all your time healing? I mean, if the game is designed that way, okay, but neither 3E nor 4E encouraged classic healbotting. 4E avoided it by using minor actions for healing spells; 3E avoided it simply by making healing a sub-optimal use of a standard action. Smart 3E clerics spend their combat rounds casting buffs and control spells and whacking enemies over the head. Unless someone is on the brink of death, the healing spells don't usually come out till the fight is over.

(I should add that "Healbot Feat" was a joke name, not meant to imply that the character would turn into a mindless healing drone.)

And it certainly takes away a lot of the FLAVOR of healing. Instead of "I can heal because I channel the power of the gods, since I am their dedicated servant" you get "I can heal because...well, I took a feat!"

It'd be simple enough for the feat to require some time to use and have usage limits that don't constrain the cleric. Call it "Healing Lore," say it takes 5 minutes to use, and you can only use it on a given subject X number of times per day.
 
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Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
Why would you spend all your time healing? I mean, if the game is designed that way, okay, but neither 3E nor 4E encouraged classic healbotting. 4E avoided it by using minor actions for healing spells; 3E avoided it simply by making healing a sub-optimal use of a standard action. Smart 3E clerics spend their combat rounds casting buffs and control spells and whacking enemies over the head. Unless someone is on the brink of death, the healing spells don't usually come out till the fight is over.
Both of these things are kind of debatable. I played a Cleric as my primary 3.5e character. I played in Living Greyhawk and used to fly to a couple of conventions a year to play him, so I got to play in nearly every type of party make up with random strangers...and with no house rules. I played him from level 1 through level 16.

I can tell you that when you face easy enemies, your healing isn't needed at all. Enemies died in one round of attacking from my group. Most of those battles I spent buffing or just attacking with my sword...mainly because buffs were almost completely useless most of the time. Most of them give +1 to hit...which is basically the same as delaying most of the time. All of the REAL buffs lasted hours and were cast long before the battle started. Casting control spells was a waste of spells when your fighter is going to kill the enemy before they get to fight back anyways. During these combats sleeping would have been as useful as any other action I took.

When we faced hard enemies, on the other hand, ones that we had to actually worry about, I was healing nearly every round of combat. They often went: Enemy hits our Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin/Whoever was our big tough guy. They took 80 damage out of 120 hitpoints. Then I heal them so they won't drop dead the next round of combat. Repeat. During some rounds no one would have taken enough damage to warrant healing and I might cast a buff or just attack. Most enemies had such great saves that any spell you cast on them would fail 90% of the time. Most cleric combat spells did fairly small amounts of damage compared to our Fighter so it was more valuable tactically to keep him up than to cast them.

As for 4e, the minor action thing does make you concentrate much more on the other things you can do, true. But still, the primary goal of cleric/other leaders is "putting out fires". Often that's "I use a power to give that guy a save against the stun. Then I use a heal on him so he'll survive the next round." Once again, that only really applies to hard fights. Against easy encounters, healing isn't needed and you just just do damage the same as anyone else.

It'd be simple enough for the feat to require some time to use and have usage limits that don't constrain the cleric. Call it "Healing Lore," say it takes 5 minutes to use, and you can only use it on a given subject X number of times per day.
This is certainly possible. But the problem is in combat balance. If an enemy does 20 damage in a round, then being able to heal 20 damage in a round is exactly the same as completely negating the enemy's attack. So, you can balance the game based on having that healing available...or you can balance it without that healing.

It's next to impossible to balance it no knowing if healing exists.
 

That is something I really liked about 4e and the multiclass feats for leader classes - many of them granted you a daily use of their minor action heal power. It was certainly no replacement for a full healer, but it certainly helped out if your party healer went down, or if everyone took such resources (i.e. you built around the assumption of no leader), then you could run a game with no dedicated healer with minimal change to the base assumptions.

The shaman multiclass, and the skald one (before they nerfed it), were even better for this. I would have liked to see more feats along those lines in the game.

My weekly live group has no full-time leader in it. They have a Rogue, a Cavalier, a Wizard, and a Ranger. The Cavalier took the Warlord MC feat to get an extra heal, and I gave them a couple items that help them out some, a Battle Standard of Healing, and a Cloak of the Walking Wounded (which the Paladin wears). The Pally also took Toughness, so she has like 15 surges or something ridiculous. She just sucks up damage. Instead of a healer they just have a damage vacuum! (and she can do like 3 heals a day, plus take damage on herself once per encounter, etc). Beyond that they don't really miss having a leader, the Rogue and the Bow Ranger massacre stuff pretty quick, as they're reasonably optimized. The wizard can handle pretty much all the other weird stuff that comes at them, or at least make it wait its turn.
 

That still makes the person a healbot. I don't see a huge difference between "Who wants to be a cleric?" and "Who wants to pick a class, take the healbot feat and spend all their time healing anyways."

And it certainly takes away a lot of the FLAVOR of healing. Instead of "I can heal because I channel the power of the gods, since I am their dedicated servant" you get "I can heal because...well, I took a feat!"

Then again, I hate multiclassing systems like 3.5e because I like characters to have clear themes.

Well, except of course 4e heals are minor actions, so you aren't stuck doing nothing but healing every turn. Its more of an incidental thing.

Flavor of course is a matter of taste (har har). I mean I can generally justify most things narratively. I can't force people to always make their characters perfectly logically consistent with the story, but at least most of them generally TRY. I help them out too. Usually we figure out what sorts of things they want to get next BEFORE this level's adventures. That way we can work out a fun story that makes sense. Usually all it requires is a little tweak to some fluff or a side thing, or maybe it will spark off a whole adventure!
 

As for 4e, the minor action thing does make you concentrate much more on the other things you can do, true. But still, the primary goal of cleric/other leaders is "putting out fires". Often that's "I use a power to give that guy a save against the stun. Then I use a heal on him so he'll survive the next round." Once again, that only really applies to hard fights. Against easy encounters, healing isn't needed and you just just do damage the same as anyone else.
IME 4e leaders are much more proactive than that. You can for instance buff an ally or buff all attacks against one foe, allowing alpha-strikes and focus-fire respectively (basically putting out the old laser pointer). You can push the enemy around, or slide your allies, creating flanking, etc, grant attacks, many pro-active things. In fact I haven't seen a huge amount of 'fire fighting' type stuff from leaders in 4e. Its possible to grant saves, which is pretty valuable, but doesn't come up THAT much. It can get a bit different at really high levels where a granted save can be a very nice thing, but OTOH your other stuff is vastly better too at those levels.

This is certainly possible. But the problem is in combat balance. If an enemy does 20 damage in a round, then being able to heal 20 damage in a round is exactly the same as completely negating the enemy's attack. So, you can balance the game based on having that healing available...or you can balance it without that healing.

It's next to impossible to balance it no knowing if healing exists.

preventing damage is a bit different tactically. It CAN be similar, but it has to be the 'instantly decide to prevent' type of interrupt kind. Even then the implications are not identical. You can probably balance that more-or-less with similar amounts of healing though. Again though, I don't see any reason to believe that story-wise one ability is better than the other. They're both clearly rather magic-ish, or possibly 'inspirational' or something, but generally either one requires some explanation.
 

pemerton

Legend
Suddenly the quaint English fishing villiage haunted by a single ghost suddenly has zombies, lesser ghosts, and traps because of the needs of the game.
I'm not sure what version or level of D&D you were running this scenario in. In 4e, make the ghost a solo a 4th level solo and that will be fairly tough for 1st level PCs.

Or make it a 5th level elite and let it animate the dead bodies of its victims to round out the encounter.

And against a ghostly haunting in 4e much of the preliminariy conflict would presumably be skill-challengey rather than combat, I imagine.

I guess I'm not really seeing how this encouner would play radically different in other versions of D&D (I mean, in AD&D if that haunting was a ghost in the technical sense then the whole villaeg would already have died of old age!).
 

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