jdrakeh said:
I keep reading in these "4e Sucks!" threads how past editions of D&D were highly dedicated to accurate historical recreation or modeling of Earth's physics or general reality. And frankly, I'm a bit puzzled. I'm a bit puzzled because I do not belive I have ever heard anybody make this claim about D&D before. If anything, for decades, the complete and total failure of D&D to do either of these things was frequently cited as a strike against D&D by detractors.
Unfortunately, I don't have the time to read this whole thread, so I'm just going to respond to the OP. Maybe somebody has already made the points that I'm about to make. Here goes...
I think that previous editions of (A)D&D were not intended to be realistic. In a realistic game, there would be no magic, monsters, etc.
What these games sought is verisimilitude. They were an attempt to allow the players to suspend disbelief so that they could enjoy the game. So I agree with you - in part.
That said, I disagree with some of your examples of "unrealism". Since the only edition that I know well is 1E AD&D, I'll use that as a basis to discuss your examples.
While it's obvious that D&D draws on a roughly Medieval technology level, there are several anachronistic elements thereof (e.g., crossbows were introduced to Europe circa 1066), several completely fantastic elements (e.g., a gold standard economy), and several factually inaccurate elements (e.g., the D&D version of Feudalism). These elements alone far remove D&D from any Medieval reality that history has recorded. That said, it's still recognizeably European. . .
Nitpick: 1066 is not after the Middle Ages. If crossbows did appear in Europe around that time (I'll take your word for it), they would not be anachronistic in a game that was actually trying to depict the Middle Ages.
When you throw in Elves, Dwarves, Halflings (or Hobbits, depending upon what edition of D&D you're playing) and the magic of The Dying Earth, however, I'm of the firm opinion that the game is more pure strain fantasy than a simulation of Earth's past history. I really think that the issue is pretty cut and dried based on preponderance of the evidence. I mean, is there really an argument that these anachronisms and fantasy elements are not prominent features of D&D?
I agree. The inclusion of fantasy elements means that the game is not realistic.
Now, where physics are concerned, we run into a similar problem. Key features of the D&D system have always been at odds with the way things work in the real world. Hit Points is probably the best one to highlight, as it has been the most commonly cited example of how D&D fails to simulate reality at a basic level.
In D&D Hit Points represent physical health or the ability to cheat death (edition dependent), leading to the massive (and commonly cited) break with reality that somebody in good health could fall hundreds of feet or take a sword plade through the brain pan without so much as flinching. I am certain nobody is arguing that such treatment in any way models real life. Moving on. . .
No one can take a sword through the brain pan and remain standing. But what part of the game rules tells you that someone being hit for, say, 12 points of damage, just took "a sword blade through the brain pan"?
In AD&D 1E (and in later versions,too, I think),
nothing tells you that your character took a wound to any particular area. That 12 hit points might be "a sword blade through the brain pan" if you had 2 hit points left before being hit. If you had 85, they are just a nick, or bruise, or maybe a slightly pulled muscle from having to get out of the way of the stroke. The unrealism is in assuming that a hit for some amount of damage always represents a serious wound. It doesn't. There was at one time an excellent thread here on EN World giving real world examples of people who were hit many times and still continued to fight. Unfortunately, I don't have time to look for it.
As for falling hundreds of feet, it would be phenomenally lucky to survive that without serious harm. But high level characters
are lucky. That's part of what levels and hit points are supposed to represent. Maybe the fellow falling off the hundred-foot cliff hit some branches growing out of the cliffside on the way down, slowing his fall. Maybe he landed in a soft patch of deep mud. To assume that he landed on his head on pointy rocks and is more-or-less unhurt is begging the question. I would argue that the fact that he still has 20 hit points left (or whatever) after the fall tells us that he had a lucky fall. If the fall killed him, then perhaps he landed on his head on the pointy rocks. I don't claim that's realistic, though.
D&D 3x introduced the massive damage rule which changed this considerably
Nitpick: It was actually introduced (as an optional rule, perhaps?) in 2nd edition.
though strictly speaking, the rule only makes death possible -- it's still not very likely if the character is of a Level that bestows the HPs making such a roll necessary in the first place. It also removed the rules for called shots, thus eliminating the issue of strikes to specific body parts not causing death when they should (as dictated by basic reason).
I guess that the called shots rule was a 2nd edition thing? Its not in 1E. Even so, a hit to the head does NOT inevitably mean death. It might only mean a cut cheek or a dented helmet.
Now, all of that said, even with these refinements, it is still possible (and likely) for a D&D character to fall hundreds of feet and get back up to fight on. This is certainly reminiscient of myth and folklore. . . but a simulation of real world physics? The odds of suviving a free fall like that in the real world, assuming a highly skilled individual, are something on the level of greater than 1 in 1,000,000. In D&D, assuming a Level 10 character, those odds are more like 1 in 3.
[Note: In real life, age and experience have zero proven bearing on one's ability to survive a free fall from hundreds of feet in the air.]
Yes, reminiscent of myth and folklore - and of fantasy literature, too. Elric survives such a fall in
Stormbringer.
And, really, that's just the tip of the iceberg. In real life people don't move in inches (or squares)
Some of these are not examples of unrealism, but of abstraction. Granted, a real person does not move n inches or m squares, but what's the point of this observation? Are you saying that scaling things down to fit on the table top is unrealistic?
weapon combat is a learned skill that mus be practiced (not a natural aptitude),
What makes you assume that weapon combat is not a learned skill and that the characters never practice? If your logic is that "we never played that out", I can only answer that a lot of things in a PCs life are not played out, but happen nonetheless. You don't play out every meal or trip to the bathroom, do you?
things like windspeed and direction have a a huge impact on moving projectiles,
Rules for winds affecting projectiles are given in many places (1E examples: World of Greyhawk weather table,
Wilderness Survival Guide). I'd guess that such rules also exist in later editions.
untreated wounds lead to infection and death (or amputation) more times than not, etc, etc, etc.
How often do wound remain untreated in your games? In games that I have played or run, they are usually healed by magic (or psionics) in short order. Also, most "wounds" in AD&D are not real wounds, just painful bruises, scratches, and so on.
There are, simply, a huge number of purely fantastic things in D&D and an overwhelming lack of rules or situations that attempt to mirror Earth's physics, history, or other realities. So far as I can see, anyhow. Regardless, the argument is being made quite often that the exact opposite is true (e.g., that D&D 3x and earlier are rife with historical realism and simulation of Earth's realities). There aren't, however, many examples being offered to bolster those arguments.
I'm not one who is making such arguments, but your examples of "unrealism" strike me as deliberately interpreting the rules in the most unrealistic way possible. IMO, the best argument against realism in (A)D&D is that there are no magic, dragons, demi-humans, etc in the real world.
