How is D&D of any edition realistic?

[hong]

Not true.

I can easily tell the 3.5 chieftain because he is weighed down by the 60,592 gp worth of equipment the DMG says he has.

In 4th edition, I have to keep throwing rocks at the orc until one hits. If he dies, I'll know he was a minion.

You can still tell the 4E chieftain due to his being weighed down by the equipment that would be assigned a gp value if 4E cared about such things. You, of course, being a diligent DM who cares about versi vesirim verimis believability to the degree that you would have devised an in-game reason for the orc to have such equipment beyond mere game balance, can still apply that in-game reason whether or not a gp value is assigned.

 

[hong]

I'm not sure that you've fully considered the issue. While it is true that a 15hd barbarian is not tagged as such, one could reasonably assume that as a powerful orc warchief the players could be aware of his presence as part of their information gathering before the adventure. Alternatively they may have neglected the information gathering aspect, but still have encountered legends or stories about him in the more localized environs of the adventuring cite. The fame (or infamy) of a great and terrible orc would likely spread through the region. I doubt very much that any bard is singing a ballad of the savage raids lead by disposable peon number 6.

You have now got your examples crossed.

In any event even if we wish to pursue this line of debate, we haven't addressed the issue, merely pushed it back. Instead of orc minion vs. orc brute vs. 15hd orc barbarian chieftain, let us look instead at a Solar, his archangel minions, and our friend the orc chieftain. We now have a situation in which a player can behead an incarnation of the essence of good with a casual flick of the wrist, and proceed to trod the wings of angels beneath conquering heel, but must step far more lightly around aforementioned orc. That last bit of loaded language aside, doesn't this seem a bit incongruous to you?

Clearly, as a DM who enjoys lumping 21st level archangel minions together with 9th level orc chieftains, you must have a taste for off-the-wall encounters. As such a DM, you would no doubt in 3E have thrown your party against, for example, half-fiend vampire beholder barbarians, just to see what would happen. And as such a DM, you will also have extensive experience in coming up with explanations for why such encounters would occur, and selling them to the players. So you tell me.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

In any event even if we wish to pursue this line of debate, we haven't addressed the issue, merely pushed it back. Instead of orc minion vs. orc brute vs. 15hd orc barbarian chieftain, let us look instead at a Solar, his archangel minions, and our friend the orc chieftain. We now have a situation in which a player can behead an incarnation of the essence of good with a casual flick of the wrist, and proceed to trod the wings of angels beneath conquering heel, but must step far more lightly around aforementioned orc. That last bit of loaded language aside, doesn't this seem a bit incongruous to you?

That's a better example. But you'll only face Angel of Valor Minions if you're epic level. You know that they were a threat back in the day when you just had fought off your first Orc tribe, but you know you can deal with them now and they can only be dangerous in large groups. That Angel of Vengeance over there, you know that they are far more dangerous.

 

[amethal]

From the PCs point of view, he doesn't know if he just missed the AC and the Orc dodged out of the way using his, or if you hit the AC and the Orc dodged out of the way expending some hit points.

For the purpose of this discussion, I'm not interested in the PC's point of view, only the player's.

It makes for an interesting encounter.

Player "I rolled a 19. I hit."
DM "Actually, more by luck than judgement, he barely managed to get his sword in the way and blocked your blow. You've definitely got him worried; he can't take much more of this."
Player "So I missed?"
DM "Roll for damage."

 

[hong]

The guy who just hit you for six gazillion points of damage? Probably not a minion.

The guy who just called in a flamestrike on your head? Probably not a minion.

The guy who just pulled your buddy's vertebral column out of his body with the killing blow and is now eating it? Probably also not a minion.

 

[Rallek]

- Hong


They need not be part of the same encounter, merely present in the same setting. One could conceivably go stomping around the planes for a bit and indulge in some angel slaying, and then go back "home" to see how the old stronghold is running, do some light grocery shopping, get those servants to polish that knick out of your uber blade of flaming dread, and other mundane tasks. While there one of you servants could warn you about said orc chieftain and his minions running amok in your holding near your vineyards... sort of like rabbits in your lettuce patch. The example is meant to illustrate the way in which the minion concept may violate, or at least further strain, the posited naive rationalism brought by most players to the table. If you don't see that, then I suppose I have failed in my attempt to communicate it.


As far as what kind of DM I am, well, as I have never seen you at my table, I'll have to take your opinion with the proverbial grain of salt. I also don't really see what bearing it has on the merits, or lack thereof, of the argument at hand, and as such it would seem a bit of a red herring, if not an argumentum ad hominem. As I don't know you, I will assume the former, and hope that you will extend similar courtesy in the future.



Happy Gaming

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

For the purpose of this discussion, I'm not interested in the PC's point of view, only the player's.

It makes for an interesting encounter.

Player "I rolled a 19. I hit."
DM "Actually, more by luck than judgement, he barely managed to get his sword in the way and blocked your blow. You've definitely got him worried; he can't take much more of this."
Player "So I missed?"
DM "Roll for damage."

Hmm. I wonder why you're narrating the effect of the blow before the player has given you the damage number. I presume you're assuming a case where you can predict the PCs damage and are content that the target has enough damage?

Because usually I only narrate the result after applying damage (or after a miss).

 

[hong]

They need not be part of the same encounter, merely present in the same setting. One could conceivably go stomping around the planes for a bit and indulge in some angel slaying, and then go back "home" to see how the old stronghold is running, do some light grocery shopping, get those servants to polish that knick out of your uber blade of flaming dread, and other mundane tasks. While there one of you servants could warn you about said orc chieftain and his minions running amok in your holding near your vineyards... sort of like rabbits in your lettuce patch. The example is meant to illustrate the way in which the minion concept may violate, or at least further strain, the posited naive rationalism brought by most players to the table. If you don't see that, then I suppose I have failed in my attempt to communicate it.

The minion is weaker in the same way that an 8th level warrior is weaker than an 8 HD dragon, despite both having 8 hit dice. Angels live in different areas of the game world to orcs, have different purposes, face different threats, and so on. There is nothing that says a being in the Astral dominions must have more hp than something on the material plane, just the same as in 3E. Githyanki, githzerai, manes, quasits and low-ranked modrons are all lowly planar monsters that can easily be stomped by a sufficiently high-level orc.

As far as what kind of DM I am, well, as I have never seen you at my table, I'll have to take your opinion with the proverbial grain of salt. I also don't really see what bearing it has on the merits, or lack thereof, of the argument at hand, and as such it would seem a bit of a red herring, if not an argumentum ad hominem. As I don't know you, I will assume the former, and hope that you will extend similar courtesy in the future.

No, that is not what argumentum ad hominem means.

 

[RangerWickett]

I've decided that every 'hit' in 4e will be an actual hit in my game.

So if someone has 200 hit points and you hit them for 5, you make contact, sure, but your dagger just grazed their arm. If you hit them for 50, well damn, you just stuck your greataxe into his collarbone, but holy crap, he's still coming!

Though I hope there is some optional rule presented in the DMG that allows armor to work as DR without completely wrecking the rest of the math.

 

[Mister Doug]

The minion issue causes similar trouble. When fighting Orgdul the Unclean, orc shaman of The Crawling One, the party also faced 8 members of the Bloody Fist, a militant order of orcs devoted to The Crawling One. In that situation the 8 orcs were minions, and one successful attack was enough to shuffle them off this mortal coil. Now the party is watching from concealment as the last two orcs between them and freedom keep watch over the temple's rear gate. Remembering how easily those other non-shamanic orcs fell, they charge the guards... but these orcs are brutes, not minions, this miscalculation could cost them dearly. Now how were they to know the difference? Unless there is some kind of visible minion tag, was their assumption really unreasonable? If the shaman would have sent one of his underlings to fetch him some wine, and the PCs met him in the corridor, is he still a minion, or does he revert to being a "real" orc absent his cohorts and master? How does the player reasonably know this?

First, what hong said, this isn't a new issue to 4e -- with classed characters or the like, there are often surprises. (And based on your response, there are rumors regarding every classed orc in a tribe? "The tribe has a great chieftain, and a pair of really tough guards that watch the back gate.") These classed characters are easy to show off, since they will have different equipment, bearing, etc. Same with brutes vs. minions, etc.

Second, minion angels, demons, etc. will be part of specific encounters for specific types of characters. They should only be implemented in the good ol' epic characters vs. a horde of demons scenario.

Third, this isn't the first time I have seen minion style rules. Feng Shui and 7th Sea used similar rules, and they didn't stretch any players' credulity at tables where I played when they were used to present the right kind of encounter, ones that felt consistent with the scenario, genre, and type of situation faced. Minions are not there to present ultimate threats, but to help show off how tough the heroes are and set up a contrast to how bad the Big Bad is. They are the warmup to the action, but with a small touch of threat.

Now, this may not be your cup of tea (I like it as a way to set up action where the heroes feel like big stars), but they do feel to me much like the AD&D 1st edition rules that allowed fighters one attack per level against opponents with less than one hit die.

(Of course, at one point I though that that rule was terrible because it made the fighter seem superhuman. Over the years, I came to realize that in the context of a game where the wizard is already superhuman, it just gave a chance for multiple players to shine and actually feel like they are doing something at the table. Different strokes and all.)