How is D&D of any edition realistic?

Andor said:
They are consistent with each other sure. They are not consistent with the rest of the world. Thus the annoyingly visible discontinuity.

They are perfectly consistent with the rest of the world. They are not consistent with the preexisting D&Dism that hit points must increase with level. Since said D&Dism is no longer a part of the world in question, it is irrelevant when it comes to arguments about self-consistency.

Who said anything about level 1 pcs? Where did that come from? Unless there is some (utterly stupid) rule forbidding it my 29th level Paladin/Justiciar/Epic Dude could happily run around all day with his 1 damage dealing blowgun popping minions like soap bubbles.

I'm reminded of arguments about how 3E was going to be overrun by half-fiend vampire beholder barbarians.
 

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In the interests of full disclosure let me say that the majority of what I've seen about 4e seems ill suited to my preferred gaming style. I'm also not a big fan of 3.x, my group tends towards home brewed systems and heavily house ruled variants. That having been said...


For me the issue isn't one of the game being "realistic" per se, but rather one of the consistency of the model produced by the rules as it regards the players expectations. That's a bit convoluted, but if you'll bear with me for a bit I'll try to explain.


The points raised earlier in the thread about minion hp and kobold armor speak to the central issue, in my opinion. Many years back a player in my group was running a dwarven warrior/smith, and after clearing a small cave of kobolds that were threatening the local cattle population, he decided to cart up their armor and weapons and take it back to the town with him. He planned to melt it down and use the metal for something more useful, even if it was only patching up cookware or making horseshoes and plowshares for the locals. He reasonably predicted that the metal in the armor would behave as the other metal in the setting. That it would melt or soften under the right temperatures, and could then be molded or reshaped. After all, someone had to forge it in the first place, right?

In my experience players have a pre-existing idea that the "game world" operates in the broad strokes much or exactly like the real world with specific exceptions. Orcs exist, there is magic, dragons can fly non-magically despite physics, and so on, however, gravity still pulls objects "down", water is still wet, fire is still hot, force still equals mass times acceleration, you get the point.

It goes further than this, however. Players expect even the "exceptions" to the real world to behave analogously to "similar" things in the real world outside of their narrow exceptions. For example, they will accept that a griffin can fly, as that is included in the "exception", but they expect it to eat, eliminate, sleep, and in all other ways behave as a "mundane" animal of its size would. They expect that it must eat a lot, due to its mass, that it would need a large territory in which to gather its food, that its hide or fur could be used to produce certain goods, and that if they sever its head it will die. They believe that if no particular exception in the rules is made for these behaviors, and the griffin still behaves otherwise, it becomes "unrealistic"... and if we use the word as they do, they're right.

The minion issue causes similar trouble. When fighting Orgdul the Unclean, orc shaman of The Crawling One, the party also faced 8 members of the Bloody Fist, a militant order of orcs devoted to The Crawling One. In that situation the 8 orcs were minions, and one successful attack was enough to shuffle them off this mortal coil. Now the party is watching from concealment as the last two orcs between them and freedom keep watch over the temple's rear gate. Remembering how easily those other non-shamanic orcs fell, they charge the guards... but these orcs are brutes, not minions, this miscalculation could cost them dearly. Now how were they to know the difference? Unless there is some kind of visible minion tag, was their assumption really unreasonable? If the shaman would have sent one of his underlings to fetch him some wine, and the PCs met him in the corridor, is he still a minion, or does he revert to being a "real" orc absent his cohorts and master? How does the player reasonably know this?


Players approach the game from a kind of naive rationalism and rules that run contrary to that would seem, to me, to serve only to inhibit the player's ability to estimate the potential outcomes of their character's actions. If they can not do this dependably, then their interaction with the game will be stunted, and they will gravitate towards the most basic of interactions. In the context of D&D this is probably kill thing/take stuff. Your view on this depends heavily on your style of play. It may be that for a given hypothetical group playing a game with a like minded hypothetical DM this is an optimal solution.


None of those hypothetical people are me.



Just my take on the "realistic" issue.

Happy Gaming.
 

Rallek said:
The minion issue causes similar trouble. When fighting Orgdul the Unclean, orc shaman of The Crawling One, the party also faced 8 members of the Bloody Fist, a militant order of orcs devoted to The Crawling One. In that situation the 8 orcs were minions, and one successful attack was enough to shuffle them off this mortal coil. Now the party is watching from concealment as the last two orcs between them and freedom keep watch over the temple's rear gate. Remembering how easily those other non-shamanic orcs fell, they charge the guards... but these orcs are brutes, not minions, this miscalculation could cost them dearly. Now how were they to know the difference? Unless there is some kind of visible minion tag, was their assumption really unreasonable? If the shaman would have sent one of his underlings to fetch him some wine, and the PCs met him in the corridor, is he still a minion, or does he revert to being a "real" orc absent his cohorts and master? How does the player reasonably know this?

The player would know this in exactly the same way they would know who is a 1HD orc warrior grunt, and who is a 15HD orc barbarian chieftain.
 


Brown Jenkin said:
strawman.

Can we please ban this word from these boards, along with:

-Hyperbole
-Fallacious
-Ergo
-Verisimilitude

…I used to have no problem with these words, but they seem to be used as insulting crutches on these, and other, boards.
 

Steely Dan said:
Can we please ban this word from these boards, along with:

-Hyperbole
-Fallacious
-Ergo
-Verisimilitude

Hmmm. So long as people continue to engage in strawman bashing and hyperbole (not at all a rarity from what I have seen), I see it as pretty much necessary. Unless you want folks to just longwindedly spell out the definitions of these words, which doesn't really help the brevity of a discussion.
 

hong said:
The player would know this in exactly the same way they would know who is a 1HD orc warrior grunt, and who is a 15HD orc barbarian chieftain.
Not true.

I can easily tell the 3.5 chieftain because he is weighed down by the 60,592 gp worth of equipment the DMG says he has.

In 4th edition, I have to keep throwing rocks at the orc until one hits. If he dies, I'll know he was a minion.
 

- Hong


I'm not sure that you've fully considered the issue. While it is true that a 15hd barbarian is not tagged as such, one could reasonably assume that as a powerful orc warchief the players could be aware of his presence as part of their information gathering before the adventure. Alternatively they may have neglected the information gathering aspect, but still have encountered legends or stories about him in the more localized environs of the adventuring cite. The fame (or infamy) of a great and terrible orc would likely spread through the region. I doubt very much that any bard is singing a ballad of the savage raids lead by disposable peon number 6.


In any event even if we wish to pursue this line of debate, we haven't addressed the issue, merely pushed it back. Instead of orc minion vs. orc brute vs. 15hd orc barbarian chieftain, let us look instead at a Solar, his archangel minions, and our friend the orc chieftain. We now have a situation in which a player can behead an incarnation of the essence of good with a casual flick of the wrist, and proceed to trod the wings of angels beneath conquering heel, but must step far more lightly around aforementioned orc. That last bit of loaded language aside, doesn't this seem a bit incongruous to you?


Perhaps not, but as I said it may be just the cup-o-tea for some groups...
It just isn't for mine.



Happy Gaming
 

amethal said:
Not true.

I can easily tell the 3.5 chieftain because he is weighed down by the 60,592 gp worth of equipment the DMG says he has.
So, you mean you have to wait 3 rounds until Detect Magic reveals the location of magical items on the Chieftains body?

In 4th edition, I have to keep throwing rocks at the orc until one hits. If he dies, I'll know he was a minion.
Actually, no, you don't. Thanks to the hp abstraction of D&D, "damage" could also mean near misses and the target rolling with the blow, you only know that you harassed the guy long enough to kill him. From the PCs point of view, he doesn't know if he just missed the AC and the Orc dodged out of the way using his, or if you hit the AC and the Orc dodged out of the way expending some hit points.
 

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