How is modern?

[takyris]

Hey Khur,

All good. And you're totally right. I won't lie and say that it fits in perfectly with the rest of the game. I really wish that they had stun grenades that did nonlethal damage, or rules for something like a bigass bale of hay falling on you doing 4d6 nonlethal damage, or, you know, other places for it in the game. As it is, it feels tacked-on, and even though I like the mechanic for determining how it works out, it feels wrong anyway because that's the only place in the game where that particular mechanic gets used.

 

[Khur]

Yeah, it does feel a little wonky, but I gotta give those designers at WotC kudos for venturing into new territory. It's not always a success, but it's usually something that can be built upon. That's what's great about Modern, whether it all works perfectly or not.

 

[Sir Elton]

I use D20 Modern for Feng Shui/Hong Kong Action Theatre games. Everyone starts at 7th level in a Feng Shui D20 Game, so it's not a long shot that they can play magic cops, martial artists, old masters, Karate Cops, etc.

The rules are fun to work with, and provides better flexibility.

 

[Pierce]

Critical hits also go straight to WP, so a lucky shot against a heroic character has a chance to knock them out. In either case, any WP damage forces a Fort save to stay conscious. All that said, I agree that getting KOd for 1d4 rounds is a bit light. Perhaps some mechanic involving the char's CON with an allowance for an ally (or other party) to wake them up sooner via Treat Injury or shaking/slapping/water-in-the-face.

This is very interesting, and a very viable option. What's the Fortitude save to stay conscious? Perhaps time down could be based on damage inflicted somehow.

I believe the DC is 5 + (wound damage taken that round), but don't quote me - I always have to ask the GM. Obviously this can be adjusted to make it more or less likely to happen.

And I like having the time based on damage inflicted - that's kinda where my brain was headed. I'd also want to have something in the equation be level-based so that higher level heroes wake up sooner. Something like (random # of rounds) + (WP Damage) with a new Fort save each round to wake up automatically (maybe you only start making the Fort saves after the random # of rounds). Also a house rule that ordinaries who get KOd are out for the duration, perhaps.

 

[ledded]

Everyone here seems to be talking about the way class mechanics work, and that is indeed an area wherein Modern shines. It's great for customizability on the level of the player and the character. The few goofs in this department (mostly feats) are really because of the way the mechanics for different forms of combat were crafted.

Where Modern fails is in those aforementioned mechanical executions that affect game play. Gunplay, by the official rules, feels stilted and unrealistic. I mean unrealistic in an unsatisfying way, not in a cinematic way. Take the artificially leveled damage of ballistic weapons in the game as one example (a .50 caliber Desert Eagle does an average of 2 points of damage more than a 9mm). Take the absurd rules for burst fire as another (you can't fire a burst without a feat ... well, okay, you can, but you won't hit anything with the extra rounds fired).

While I agree with you on some of the mechanics, we 'fixed' a few of these things ourselves. We use the VP/WP system, and to make guns feel a little more dangerous we upped all gun damage by a die (and changed the stats on guns we felt were not done right). Not perfect, but the system is flexible enough to handle it without breaking. As far as the Burst fire/feat thing, I feel it's a good balance feature that may not be entirely realistic, but somewhat so. I've fired an automatic weapon attempting to 'burst', and not being trained to do so, I didnt do very well. On single shots I did great (being a pretty good shot), but full-auto and burst I didnt do well at all against a single target. So I've always felt that works just fine. But if you dont, it's easy to house rule a penalty for burst fire (-6?) instead of disallowing it entirely without the feat.

Non-lethal damage is another Modern shortcoming. Why? A character that has all of brawling feats Modern offers, and a 20 Strength, can do a maximum of 13 points of damage without a critical strike. That means anyone with a Con of 12 or less must make a Fortitude saving throw or be knocked out. Those with 13 or higher Con are unaffected by the blow. So, why would players choose to try non-lethal damage? The answer is they won't.

In d20 Modern, knocking someone out with non-lethal damage is harder than just reducing them to "dying" and then stabilizing them. That's not very cinematic, and it's not very fun. (The vitality/wound point system doesn't address this problem, either.)

Here I have to agree completely. While untrained or non-lethal street brawling is not quite as deadly or damaging as hitting someone with a stick in real life, there should be some way for an experienced brawler or martial artist to knock someone out that is at least possible or feasible. We use the VP/WP system, so when someone runs out of vitality, you dont do any WP damage with non-lethal hits, but the victim has to save as if you did (DC5 + total damage done that round) to remain conscious (another house rule). It's still pretty hard to knock someone out, though if you are a good brawler you can still force a pretty high fort save on someone, especially if you hit them more than once in a round. Is that realistic? I dunno, I've seen a lot of 'untrained' brawls where people get hit an awful lot without being knocked out. This works pretty well for us though without making non-lethal brawling overpowered.

Finally, the vehicle rules are serviceable, but they leave you hanging in more than one way. Having a chase between aircraft or waterborne vehicles? You're on your own. Want to know the effects of an airplane crash? No rules. But the really bad thing about the vehicle rules is the way damage to passengers is handled. Any vehicle that provides three-quarters or more cover (including most passenger cars) allows occupants to avoid all damage from a collision. Airplanes provide nine-tenths cover. You see my meaning?

I agree on the vehicle rules too. Anemic at best.

We dont allow that cover provided by the vehicle disallows damage from a collision. I dont remember that being the rules, but we dont do it regardless. We also use some of the vehicle rules from Star Wars, Spycraft, and some homebrewed ones to make it work better for us.

Despite these things, Modern is a great game. It's worth it. There are so many great options and the types of games you can pull off with the core rulebook alone are impressive. And, like others here, I liked the possibilities the system offers the fantasy genre as well--especially a low-magic setting.

I think you'll be pleased if you play.

Though, like has been said, you may want to house rule a few things for your own benefit. Just remember that the rules are more like guidelines... you can change 'em here and there to suit you. And as Khur said also, the cross-genre capability is something I've come to really enjoy from the modern system, one of the key selling points IMO.


Oh, Pierceatwork, I agree with you totally on that mechanic, and we should bring it up with OldDrewId pretty soon. Remember how I recently chased that one guy around for something like 8 or 9 rounds, playing golf with his head and an axe-handle, before he finally dropped... then woke up 18 seconds later?

 

[Von Ether]

The right tool for the right job ...

I look at games in how they help support gamer behaviors, instead of "realism."

And d20 Modern is a good game for when you have a group that leans towards being self-suffiencent and wants to cross-genres alot, especially in a D&D type fashion.

 

[Khur]

I've fired an automatic weapon attempting to 'burst', and not being trained to do so, I didnt do very well.

Reality tests like this are very valuable, and one has to remember that Rich Redman (one of the designers) is a military type. What I don't like about bursts is the fact that without the feat all extra ammo is wasted all the time, and the additional damage does not accurately reflect the target being struck by more than one round. I think military training should be valuable in the game, I just don't think the tight control on gun damage was the way to do it.

We dont allow that cover provided by the vehicle disallows damage from a collision. I dont remember that being the rules, but we dont do it regardless.

It's actually specifically in the rules that cover reduces damage from a collision, and the cover chart for vehicles appears in that section (Modern p. 160). Do you still use the Reflex save to halve damage from a collision (same page)? Does restraint (seat belts, and etc.) help?

I look at games in how they help support gamer behaviors, instead of "realism."

Me too. The things I point out about Modern work fine, they just "feel" off. Some of them don't support the actual playing of the game as well as they should, so they don't support gamer behaviors.

 

[ledded]

Reality tests like this are very valuable, and one has to remember that Rich Redman (one of the designers) is a military type. What I don't like about bursts is the fact that without the feat all extra ammo is wasted all the time, and the additional damage does not accurately reflect the target being struck by more than one round. I think military training should be valuable in the game, I just don't think the tight control on gun damage was the way to do it.

If you think of a better way to handle it, let me know.

It's actually specifically in the rules that cover reduces damage from a collision, and the cover chart for vehicles appears in that section (Modern p. 160). Do you still use the Reflex save to halve damage from a collision (same page)? Does restraint (seat belts, and etc.) help?

Yeah, I think you're right, though we handle it a bit different. I'm not sure, but I think our GM allows a reflex save to those in the vehicle to allow half damage (unless the collision is horrific enough to make reflex a moot point, such as crashing a helicopter into a stadium ). I dont remember exactly how we handle seatbelts, I think they give a circumstance bonus to that reflex save. I'll have to ask OldDrewId, I just dont remember.

 

[Shewolf]

I won't even touch the gunplay issue... of course, there's been some tweaking to those rules since we started Americanarchy that make it a little less foolish...(I love houserules)

Non-lethal damage is another Modern shortcoming. Why? A character that has all of brawling feats Modern offers, and a 20 Strength, can do a maximum of 13 points of damage without a critical strike. That means anyone with a Con of 12 or less must make a Fortitude saving throw or be knocked out. Those with 13 or higher Con are unaffected by the blow. So, why would players choose to try non-lethal damage? The answer is they won't.

In d20 Modern, knocking someone out with non-lethal damage is harder than just reducing them to "dying" and then stabilizing them. That's not very cinematic, and it's not very fun. (The vitality/wound point system doesn't address this problem, either.)

Personally, I don't see non-lethal damage as a shortcoming. Like most systems - especially those that are rushed out to meet deadlines - a few tweaks and "common sense" alterations are necessary.

But "why try?" Hmmm... let's see - maybe to avoid accidentally killing the target, thus having to face the cops coming down on the characters for murder... or maybe the characters just aren't that interested in killing people.

Just because the player and GM know that the blow won't cause damage - what makes the character have any idea how resilient his opponent will be? Personally (and this is one of the "common sense" rulings in my game), 13 points of damage... lethal - it takes you down 13 points. Non-lethal - while it doesn't do any "damage," the target stumbles and is disoriented for the round.

Again, I won't touch the vehicles... for the same reason as the guns. They're in serious need of work - but there seems to be a focus on fixing those (from third-party publishers and such), so I'll hold my complaints till we see what happens.

Despite these things, Modern is a great game. It's worth it. There are so many great options and the types of games you can pull off with the core rulebook alone are impressive. And, like others here, I liked the possibilities the system offers the fantasy genre as well--especially a low-magic setting.

I think you'll be pleased if you play.

In spite of my arguments...
I agree

 

[Krieg]

one has to remember that Rich Redman (one of the designers) is a military type.

Well sort of. He was an admin pogue of the first order.