Nifft
Penguin Herder
I like a lot of the mechanics behind White Wolf's whole New School of Darkness.
Cheers, -- N
How is Old School not at least related to nostalgia?
- Thread starter Mercurius
- Start date
Cheers, -- N
For people that have played DND for a while, then that "old school" feeling is partly based on nostalgia.
Humans are biased as a species, and I don't mean racially, I mean in almost every decision we make. The funny thing is we often don't know it, and when we do, we often don't believe it. We are psychologically built to be confident in ourselves it would seem, to believe we are better than we are....even when science proves us wrong.
Humans tend to like things that are familiar, and as you get older more things get familiar and familiarity gets more ingrained. So as you get older, there is a biased towards things that are new and different....even when you feel you are completely unbiased.
Nostalgia can also be enhanced by another facet. For the majority I people (I am assuming), gaming gets harder as you get older. Its harder to get the old gang together, harder to play for the same amount of time you used to, and harder to focus on your character (as the demands of real life consume a lot of your thoughts). So with that in mind its easy to look back at your gaming days of old and think they were better than they are now. And I would suspect in many cases....that is completely true. Personally, I feel that gaming during my college days was more fun that it is for me in the real world. Its not that gaming isn't still fun, but real life has dimmed the shine a bit.
**Note, its important to realize that the last paragraph I wrote is biased based on my own experience. I could be completely wrong based on scientific evidence, but right now I feel very confident in my assumptions. I felt it was important to highlight this since I am writing an argument talking about biases.
Now all of that said, is nostalgia a bad thing? It depends. Since gaming is an activity solely for the sake of fun, it doesn't matter why a person does or doesn't enjoy certain things that are new or old or whatever. As long as they find something they enjoy, then its fine.
The problem comes in with new systems and new concepts, and the debate that causes. We all have our preferences and biases, whether we realize them or not. Some cling to the familiarity of old, and have an inherent bias against new things. Others often a penchant for wanting things that are new...and will think they are better than they are. These biases skew our arguments when we are comparing new and old.
Ultimately, all of this only really matters to WOTC and other gaming companies. We can debate different editions and styles of gaming on Enworld until everyone has achy joints from typing so much. But in the end we will all find something we like and stick with it. The problem is....in order to continue the legacy of DNd, new players must be found. Dnd has to be fun for these new players.
Now we veteran gamers can tell WOTC what we think is "fun", but our opinions are biased....and don't necessarily reflect what the newest generation thinks is fun. Gauging the new generation, and scientifically determining what they will enjoy, can be extrememly hard....and in that respect nostalgia is a powerful enemy.
Humans are biased as a species, and I don't mean racially, I mean in almost every decision we make. The funny thing is we often don't know it, and when we do, we often don't believe it. We are psychologically built to be confident in ourselves it would seem, to believe we are better than we are....even when science proves us wrong.
Humans tend to like things that are familiar, and as you get older more things get familiar and familiarity gets more ingrained. So as you get older, there is a biased towards things that are new and different....even when you feel you are completely unbiased.
Nostalgia can also be enhanced by another facet. For the majority I people (I am assuming), gaming gets harder as you get older. Its harder to get the old gang together, harder to play for the same amount of time you used to, and harder to focus on your character (as the demands of real life consume a lot of your thoughts). So with that in mind its easy to look back at your gaming days of old and think they were better than they are now. And I would suspect in many cases....that is completely true. Personally, I feel that gaming during my college days was more fun that it is for me in the real world. Its not that gaming isn't still fun, but real life has dimmed the shine a bit.
**Note, its important to realize that the last paragraph I wrote is biased based on my own experience. I could be completely wrong based on scientific evidence, but right now I feel very confident in my assumptions. I felt it was important to highlight this since I am writing an argument talking about biases.
Now all of that said, is nostalgia a bad thing? It depends. Since gaming is an activity solely for the sake of fun, it doesn't matter why a person does or doesn't enjoy certain things that are new or old or whatever. As long as they find something they enjoy, then its fine.
The problem comes in with new systems and new concepts, and the debate that causes. We all have our preferences and biases, whether we realize them or not. Some cling to the familiarity of old, and have an inherent bias against new things. Others often a penchant for wanting things that are new...and will think they are better than they are. These biases skew our arguments when we are comparing new and old.
Ultimately, all of this only really matters to WOTC and other gaming companies. We can debate different editions and styles of gaming on Enworld until everyone has achy joints from typing so much. But in the end we will all find something we like and stick with it. The problem is....in order to continue the legacy of DNd, new players must be found. Dnd has to be fun for these new players.
Now we veteran gamers can tell WOTC what we think is "fun", but our opinions are biased....and don't necessarily reflect what the newest generation thinks is fun. Gauging the new generation, and scientifically determining what they will enjoy, can be extrememly hard....and in that respect nostalgia is a powerful enemy.
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PC's right.
Old School is not about nostalgia for me. The system that I'm running (Empire of the Petal Throne) was published when I was 2 years old. Two. I by definition cannot have nostalgia for it. That system is in fact basically just a house rules set for the original D&D system (OD&D), which was published when I was 1 year old.
When this stuff came out, I was actually in diapers. I never played it as a kid. So it has nothing to do with nostalgia. It has to do with the fact that it delivers the play experience I want, and especially as a Ref if gives me the sort of latitude I want and it fits my style. I get high compliments for my game so I know it's suited.
The reason I get horked off when people say "nostalgia" is because it is usually a way of dismissing something that is a real taste and a considered choice as mere emotionality. That stance assumes that 'modern' games are better, and therefore the thing that draws people to Old School games is something irrational (a feeling).
I can tell you that you're dead wrong about that. It is a considered choice to embrace a system which is better... better for the specific Ref or players, better at delivering a specific and valid play experience. Better for me. Better for my group. Maybe not better for you, because you want something different. What's the big deal?
So enjoy your 3E or 4E or whatever, with your "squares" and "spiked chains" and "power cards" and enormous mega-rulebooks and other things I strongly dislike. Great, do it. Have fun. I won't call you names for it... I just ask that you return the favor.
kitsune9
Adventurer
I see your point.
JRRNeiklot
First Post
What a load of utter crap. I play AD&D because it is a superior ruleset. That's it. I am not trying to recapture anything. I play it because I like it. That's it. Nostalgia has crapall to do with it.
You can feel nostalgia for something without having experienced it yourself. I was born in 1975, but that doesn't stop me from getting a sense of nostalgia from eating at a '50s' style diner or listening to Elvis. That you didn't start gaming until three years ago doesn't preclude you from wanting to play games like they did back in the old days.
And what is nostalgia and what isn't is a personal definition anyway. To me, all D&D is nostalgic. I don't really get off on elves and orcs and wizards any more, but I'll play a bit because it reminds me of the old days, when that was the coolest stuff on earth. Same with game definitions - JRRNeiklot feels AD&D is a great rule system. I feel that its an incomprehensible mess. That's okay, works for him, not for me.
But people get hot under the collar when they think you're dismissing their preferences.
And what is nostalgia and what isn't is a personal definition anyway. To me, all D&D is nostalgic. I don't really get off on elves and orcs and wizards any more, but I'll play a bit because it reminds me of the old days, when that was the coolest stuff on earth. Same with game definitions - JRRNeiklot feels AD&D is a great rule system. I feel that its an incomprehensible mess. That's okay, works for him, not for me.
But people get hot under the collar when they think you're dismissing their preferences.
jgbrowning
Hero
Although a rules-set is created at a certain time, the rules-set exists only in the present.
joe b.
joe b.
It's "nostalgia" in the same way as eating bread, traveling on wheels, writing with an alphabet, or a whole lot of other things that just work for some people. It is long-proven to do the job they want it to do.
Other things might be as good, but that's no incentive to switch. When feature after feature billed as an "improvement" is from one's perspective just the opposite -- because it's designed to suit people whose goals are different, some of whom indeed detest the purposes the old tool was meant to serve -- that is certainly no incentive.
Why aren't all the 4e players choosing something else instead? Some of those reasons, turned around, are quite sufficient warrant for those who do choose something else instead.
Other things might be as good, but that's no incentive to switch. When feature after feature billed as an "improvement" is from one's perspective just the opposite -- because it's designed to suit people whose goals are different, some of whom indeed detest the purposes the old tool was meant to serve -- that is certainly no incentive.
Why aren't all the 4e players choosing something else instead? Some of those reasons, turned around, are quite sufficient warrant for those who do choose something else instead.
thedungeondelver
Adventurer
Stop. I'm doing no such thing. There's no recapturing happening. I don't wish I was twelve again (I hated middle school and when I could game, I did game with a bunch of dicks), I don't pine for some far-away time (I didn't grasp the rules well enough then to play them as I do now), I don't long for the "good old days" of TSR (although I didn't know it then the company was a veritable
ing shambles and Gary was being driven off by absolutely subhuman garbage, namely the Blumes and Lorraine Williams).I play AD&D to-day, because I view it as a superior product. Today. Compared to today's D&D.
Not because I wistfully say "Oh...once upon a time...!" It isn't 1982 again, and it won't ever be, and I don't wish it to be.
Neither does my gaming group, QED.
That is how "old school" is not related to nostalgia, from where I sit.
UniversalMonster
Explorer
If you can reference the past (Blumes, Lorraine Williams, TSR) so easily, and toss off references like "subhuman garbage" and so on.. (and in other threads, references to Gygax)...
I'm just having a hard time taking you seriously about not being influenced by the past. I really don't think there's anything whatsoever wrong with it, and I think it's absolutely ok to like whatever you like with no justification whatsoever..(seriously, you don't even need an excuse) but..give fans of other editions the courtesy to do the same.
Be honest with yourself.
I'm just having a hard time taking you seriously about not being influenced by the past. I really don't think there's anything whatsoever wrong with it, and I think it's absolutely ok to like whatever you like with no justification whatsoever..(seriously, you don't even need an excuse) but..give fans of other editions the courtesy to do the same.
Be honest with yourself.
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