Yes, very true I think. Developmentally there is something about that age, from 9-12ish, that is truly special in terms of imagination. At around nine kids often really "wake up", but for a few years they are still pre-pubescent, so not as "distracted" by relationships and sexuality.
Nice thoughtful response, btw. I'll go further into it.
In other words, people's own perceptions color these personal golden ages. Give or take a few years in either direction, this golden age is when you think entertainment is best. You had the best movies, music, TV shows, comics, RPGs, etc.
I would amend this slightly and say the golden age is when one discovers one's own tastes and really begins to explore them. It isn't simply a matter of entertainment but creative output.
Years down the road, you're not likely to be as excited or enthused for these items as you were back during this time. You might see current trends through a more cynical eye, you might be jaded, things might have changed too much, etc.
Yup. To some degree I think this adult cynicism/jadedness is why people take the "nostalgic turn". I think a lot of folks in their 30s return to gaming or hobbying of any kind, partially because they might be more settled down (career and family) and want something for themselves.
It's an important facet to consider. It's not a judgement or anything, but I know I'm not as immune to it. For instance, I was and am a very Gygax loyalist--purchased all of Gary's works, etc, and I've enjoyed almost everything he ever wrote. But no matter what I've read (and I've read tons of his work, even stuff unpublished), you can't always recreate the same personal magic and level of enthusiasm when you were at your own "golden age".
Yes and no. I don't think you can recreate the same magic for the work of others but you can create a new (and greater, I would argue) magic through your own creativity. Speaking for myself I used to devour fantasy novel after fantasy novel, from about the age of 8 until 17 or 18. I continued to read but at a more moderate pace. Now, in my mid-30s, I have a hard time finish a fantasy novel, partially because I can't find many that really interest me. But I do work on my own novel, and I get the same sense of magic and wonder from my own work that I used to get from the work of others.
Even the same creators might not seem as special, and it might not be because they've changed, it might be because you are a little older (experienced, jaded, cynical, whatever etc.)
Chris Claremont and Gary Gygax were two of the Wise Elders of my youth. I'm not saying that I don't respect them anymore, I do, but they used to be gods. Now they are men, creative men who I respect but don't worship.
I'm not saying this is the only reason, but I do think it is a big part. I think any criticism of these subjects need to take this factor into account. I'm not saying there are objective reasons for why the old/new game is worse/better/the same, but there are also hidden subjective factors.
Well, exactly.
I like some of the old school bloggers, but sometimes I feel there are certain essays that try too had to defend things with a veneer of objectivity that should really be phrased as "it's just not my style". (For instance, James at Grognardia likes to say the 1e art was better than 2e art, and from most artistic standpoints I say that is false--the reason the artists were replaced was because many of them weren't as good as the later artists--when TSR had more money, they could pay for better artists, and I think the neologisms like "Gygaxian Naturalism" are a little much).
Good point. I have had the same experience.
IMHO the whole fantasy genre is strongly influenced by nostalgia, and that goes right back to Tolkien in a big way.
Very true.
EDIT: Interesting, we've gone from "thread designed to start arguments" to "interesting discussion." I'll leave it open for now. Thanks for writing some thoughtful and interesting responses, folks.
I just love it when someone assumes they know my motives for writing something, as if they know better than I what I
really think (that's actually a subtle form of aggression, btw). In this case you are wrong, Piratecat. This sort of "interesting discussion" is exactly what I had hoped would result from my post, not arguments.
The old school movement I think, is a blend of nostalgia and curiosity. Newer gamers who never had the chance to play these older games are checking them out for the first time. Some might quickly discover that the play experience is not to thier liking and move to modern games and others may keep playing the older versions because it clicks for them.
This makes sense to me.
Nostalgia doesn't really work for me, I always feel like I missed the good stuff, first time around! Maybe it comes from being born right after the last man left the moon...
You're sounding rather nostalgic, amigo!
When this stuff came out, I was actually in diapers. I never played it as a kid. So it has nothing to do with nostalgia. It has to do with the fact that it delivers the play experience I want, and especially as a Ref if gives me the sort of latitude I want and it fits my style.
Fair enough. While I totally take what you are saying at face value I will also echo what someone said later on, that one can be nostalgic for something that they didn't directly experience. I was born in 1973 and one of my favorite periods of music is the 1967ish to 1977ish experimental jazz, fusion, jazz-funk, etc...and there is a touch of nostalgia for me, a yearning for the energy that brought about such amazing music. The same actually goes for the 70s and early 80s of RPGs. Now I was into D&D as of the early 80s, and I have nostalgia for some of that, but I also have a sense of it for what I wasn't aware of at the time, of the feeling folks must of had of being in the early years of the "RPG explosion."
The reason I get horked off when people say "nostalgia" is because it is usually a way of dismissing something that is a real taste and a considered choice as mere emotionality. That stance assumes that 'modern' games are better, and therefore the thing that draws people to Old School games is something irrational (a feeling).
I hear you but I am not using nostalgia dismissively. I just think it is a factor, a major one in most cases, and that there is nothing wrong with that. I would hate to write off anything but the worst Hallmark movies as "mere emotionality," being a rather emotional fellow myself. Actually, I disagree with what I feel you are implying, that irrationality/feeling/emotionality is pejorative and lesser than rationality/thinking. I see them as two different beasts, like apples and oranges or demons and devils.
If anything I am saying that in addition to any intellectual, rational, conscious reasons one has for being into Old School, there is an aesthetic, affective, and yes, emotional aspect that often (usually?) relates to nostalgia.
I can tell you that you're dead wrong about that. It is a considered choice to embrace a system which is better... better for the specific Ref or players, better at delivering a specific and valid play experience. Better for me. Better for my group. Maybe not better for you, because you want something different. What's the big deal?
It is not a big deal to me, just a topic of interest. And I will agree that I may be "dead wrong" with regards to you and others with a similar stance, but maybe not some.
So enjoy your 3E or 4E or whatever, with your "squares" and "spiked chains" and "power cards" and enormous mega-rulebooks and other things I strongly dislike. Great, do it. Have fun. I won't call you names for it... I just ask that you return the favor.
OK, OK, but you're really attacking a strawman here, Korgoth. I hear your frustration, but you've got the wrong guy, man!
You can feel nostalgia for something without having experienced it yourself.
Ah, you're the one who said it. Good point.
And what is nostalgia and what isn't is a personal definition anyway. To me, all D&D is nostalgic. I don't really get off on elves and orcs and wizards any more, but I'll play a bit because it reminds me of the old days, when that was the coolest stuff on earth. Same with game definitions - JRRNeiklot feels AD&D is a great rule system. I feel that its an incomprehensible mess. That's okay, works for him, not for me.
But people get hot under the collar when they think you're dismissing their preferences.
Yeah, I hear that. What bothers me about the Edition War is not people disagreeing or touting a particular system--or even dismissing each other's preferences--it is that we can't discuss this stuff. We can't say what you said above, about JRRNeiklot's vs. your perspective on AD&D (I agree with you, btw, but that is part of the charm of AD&D!). Why not? Because people get hot under the collar. So what? Well, exactly. What's wrong with a bit of hotness under the collar?
I'm not trying to inspire hotness under the collar, but I tend to like discussing things that inspire hotness under the collar--and I find it interesting if we can do so without getting hot under the collar. That is where some really interesting conversation comes about, like in this thread. Imagine, for instance, getting advocates of the six or so major variations of D&D together and trying to come up with a variant edition that included the best of all. It would be like the United Nations, I suppose, and thus likely get nowhere, but be very interesting to try.
So my point is, rather than shy away from the Edition War, let's talk about it but in a civil way. And if someone gets upset, that's okay. We can talk about that to, work it out until it isn't a problem anymore so we can get back on task. I would love to start a thread entitled "What are the best aspects of each edition of D&D and how can we fuse them into an Uber Edition?" But it would probably be deemed as trollish and/or devolve into bickering.
I'm just having a hard time taking you seriously about not being influenced by the past. I really don't think there's anything whatsoever wrong with it, and I think it's absolutely ok to like whatever you like with no justification whatsoever..(seriously, you don't even need an excuse) but..give fans of other editions the courtesy to do the same.
I'm not sure who this was directed at, but I agree with you. There is no need to justify one's edition preference.
To be honest, there's nothing wrong with nostalgia. Heck, more than one current RPG company has based a large chunk of their business model on appealing to precisely that. Heck, WOTC's doing it right now as well with the new Dark Sun setting and Tomb of Horrors mega-module.
There's nothing wrong with appealing to something people remember fondly.
The problem lies with people's rather subjective memories and the tendency of many (myself included to my dismay) to try to project those memories on everyone. "How we played back in the day..." style posts for example are nostalgia colored glasses lines far too often used as salvos in edition wars.
Because the feelings are so subjective, trying to untangle them from any sort of objective truth can be a real ordeal.
Yup, and maybe it isn't necessary. Or rather, maybe naked "objective truth" (whatever that is) can only be experienced when clothed in subjectivity. At the least it gives it flavor.
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