How is Old School not at least related to nostalgia?

[S'mon]

If you never played 'Old School' back in the day, I don't think it can be nostalgia.

I never played or ran Moldvay B/X D&D back in the day, but I now use the Labyrinth Lord retro-clone as my game of choice (and James Malizewski appears to be going in that direction, also). Because B/X and LL are a great, simple, clean game that is very easy to use, and that's what I want for online play especially.

If I were trying to recapture the feel of the 1e AD&D (with Unearthed Arcana) that I ran as a teenager, full of PC Drow, Cavaliers, and hacking through Legends & Lore, yes that would be nostalgia. Those who are trying to recapture their youth via Old School are influenced by nostalgia. Nothing wrong with that, but it's only part of the Old School movement.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

How is the love for 4e not at least partially related to the ephemeral draw of the new and shiny?

It is absolutely for me. I love the new and shiny. Of course, that's helping only in the beginning, the new and shiny always wears off and has to replaced by quality and good experiences.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I've heard claims that "Old School" gaming has nothing to do with nostalgia. I don't see it. [/URL]

Well, those of us who remember the 'old days,' certainly may be engaging in nostalgia when we decided to play an 'old school' game. That's certainly what's going on when I run first-edition Gamma World. I call it 'paleogaming,' and, I think, it's good for newer (or less old) players to see what early games were like.

But, you can be playing in an 'old school' style without knowing what things were like in the old days - you can be new to gaming, and playing in that style. Afterall, when we were playing old school in the old days, we were all new to gaming, since RPGs pretty new. (And the 'old school' was wargaming).

So, no the claim is fair enough.

 

[Aus_Snow]

If you never played 'Old School' back in the day, I don't think it can be nostalgia.

Yeah, funny that. It's like me playing some OD&D - how the heck is that nostalgia, when the first *I* heard of the game was here, on EN World?!

Right. Exactly.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Troll.

Discussion, regardless.

 

[Imban]

4e's been out for quite a while now - almost as long as 3e before the revision.

Uh, 3e was released mid-2000 and revised in 2003.

4e was released mid-2008. It's currently mid-2009.

As such, I don't think this statement is entirely true.

(thread topic)

Basically, nostalgia is usually seen as reminiscing about the "good old days", which usually weren't all that good. On the other hand, one can certainly imagine a player who is a newcomer to RPGs trying out 4e D&D, not liking it, and then trying out... I dunno, Castles & Crusades or Palladium Fantasy with a different group and liking it.

There could be various reasons for this - maybe he prefers the GMing style of the latter group, maybe he prefers the rules of Castles & Crusaders, whatever - but neither is "familiar surroundings" to him, and unless beaten over the head with how "oldschool" the latter is first, he's probably not in it just because he likes old things.

Furthermore, because of my first sentence on this topic, it's a prelude to an attack on that playstyle about 90% of the time. It's like "rollplayer" or such - the frequency with which it's used to abuse means that people are unlikely to want it at all associated with them.

 

[JohnRTroy]

I think the Thomsons who ran Comic Buyer's Guide coined a phrase that is akin to nostalgia but not exactly the same. It was coined in response to "The Golden Age of Comics"

"The Golden Age is 12".

In other words, people's own perceptions color these personal golden ages. Give or take a few years in either direction, this golden age is when you think entertainment is best. You had the best movies, music, TV shows, comics, RPGs, etc. Years down the road, you're not likely to be as excited or enthused for these items as you were back during this time. You might see current trends through a more cynical eye, you might be jaded, things might have changed too much, etc.

This is pretty common. I see comments on YouTube about bands from the 1980s and people saying "they just don't make music as good like this anymore". Well, I remember music critics saying the same thing comparing the contemporary acts to the 1960s.

It's an important facet to consider. It's not a judgement or anything, but I know I'm not as immune to it. For instance, I was and am a very Gygax loyalist--purchased all of Gary's works, etc, and I've enjoyed almost everything he ever wrote. But no matter what I've read (and I've read tons of his work, even stuff unpublished), you can't always recreate the same personal magic and level of enthusiasm when you were at your own "golden age".

Even the same creators might not seem as special, and it might not be because they've changed, it might be because you are a little older (experienced, jaded, cynical, whatever etc.)

I'm not saying this is the only reason, but I do think it is a big part. I think any criticism of these subjects need to take this factor into account. I'm not saying there are objective reasons for why the old/new game is worse/better/the same, but there are also hidden subjective factors.

I like some of the old school bloggers, but sometimes I feel there are certain essays that try too had to defend things with a veneer of objectivity that should really be phrased as "it's just not my style". (For instance, James at Grognardia likes to say the 1e art was better than 2e art, and from most artistic standpoints I say that is false--the reason the artists were replaced was because many of them weren't as good as the later artists--when TSR had more money, they could pay for better artists, and I think the neologisms like "Gygaxian Naturalism" are a little much).

 

[DaveyJones]

tom wham, tim kask, frank mentzer were still at the auctions at Gen Con this year.

how can it be nostalgia if it never stopped?

and for JohnRTroy... www.tomwham.com old school art at its finest.

 

[Nifft]

It was coined in response to "The Golden Age of Comics"

"The Golden Age is 12".

I'll buy that for a dollar.

Its definitely, 100% related to the draw of the new and shiny. I like new things. Also shiny things. I am ok with this.

Same here. New & shiny is what got me into 3.0e back in the day, and it's still an appealing combination.

To me Old School is, at the very least, strongly influenced by nostalgia. And you know what? It doesn't matter. It doesn't denigrate Old School unless you think nostalgia is a bad thing.

IMHO the whole fantasy genre is strongly influenced by nostalgia, and that goes right back to Tolkien in a big way.

So it's no great surprise that people who like fantasy RPGs have non-trivial overlap with people who are influenced by nostalgia. Presumably that's part of the appeal of fantasy RPGs in the first place.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Piratecat]

EDIT: Interesting, we've gone from "thread designed to start arguments" to "interesting discussion." I'll leave it open for now. Thanks for writing some thoughtful and interesting responses, folks.