How is Old School not at least related to nostalgia?

...my view is informed by studying developmental psychology and various educational theories, so it isn't merely some sort of auto-didactic pie-in-the-sky perspective...

Yeah, umm... those guys are wrong. :hmm:

Edit: Or in any case, your version of dev-psy is wrong, since it bears no resemblance to my experience or those of others who have already commented above. Maybe the works themselves are more nuanced. Your version reads like His Dark Materials.
 
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Yeah, umm... those guys are wrong. :hmm:

Edit: Or in any case, your version of dev-psy is wrong, since it bears no resemblance to my experience or those of others who have already commented above. Maybe the works themselves are more nuanced. Your version reads like His Dark Materials.

I am using "developmental psychology" in a general sense, not the specific field. I should have been more clear. That is, psychologies that have some kind of developmental framework (e.g. Maslow), and really more than just psychologies but spiritual traditions and other philosophies (the so-called "perennial philosophy" as well as Western esotericism, etc).

And yeah, Pullman knows a bit. I don't mind being related to him.

But if you and Aus Snow want to trash what I am saying please at least say why what I am saying is wrong. At least tell me how your experience differs.

Sure, you could have a sexual awakening earlier than puberty, but it is likely more of a precursor than a full-blown awakening. I am talking about usual trajectory, not the exceptions.
 

I agree with C.S Lewis on this: Everyone gets his stabs of Joy in different ways; one never knows where it will come from. One thing is certain, the moment you turn your attention to the Joy itself in order to "capture" what exactly is causing it, it will elude you. Joy (and Fun) is a by-product of some other activity; it cannot be a mere end in itself.

Wise words.
 

I think one of the primary reasons adults are interested in Fantasy (which I capitalize to imply the broad field of any kind of imaginative activity related to the fantastical, whether reading, writing, artwork, RPGs, etc) is to try to capture, or re-capture, this sense of wonder, which is akin to a sense of "God." When we are children before our own "Fall", which happens with the awakening of sexuality between around 12 and 15 (although sometimes earlier these days), we are awake to this wonderment, this Mystery. But then we lose it.

With all due respect to your studies, there's something here that seems to fail a basic Occam's Razor test.

You say that one of the primary reasons adults like fantasy is to recapture this wonder that they have lost.

But children, from the time they learn to use words on up, also like fantasy - Dragons and unicorns, knights and princesses, these are the bread and butter of children's dreams, right? But they are incapable of a desire to recapture the wonder, as they haven't lost it yet. Whatever reason they have for liking fantasy, it isn't recapturing lost wonder.

Occam's Razor says we should not multiply entities when we don't need to. Why do we need a reason beyond the child's (whatever it is) to explain the interest in fantasy?

Or, to put another way - why aren't we talking about a human reason for interest in fantasy. Why separate ones for children and adults?
 

Sure, you could have a sexual awakening earlier than puberty, but it is likely more of a precursor than a full-blown awakening...

Uh, no. Not in any meaningful sense I can discern. I don't think this makes me weird. If anything, I think putting forward this Innocence/Sin/Fall (and consequent loss of SoW) thing out of Genesis as a universal metaphor for puberty is considerably weirder. :erm:

Edit: I don't particularly want to go in depth on my childhood development here. But I do recall for a good 5 years pre-puberty (ca 6-10) having a perennial King of the World fantasy where I was attended on as Emperor by legions of identikit (rather 'Addicted to Love' style) spear-carrying Princesses in diaphonous/wet gowns... Aside from my actual physical capabilities and the limits of my practical knowledge, there was nothing 'precursor' about it.
 
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I definitely think that nostalgia is one motivation that leads people back to the the old games. I believe there is at least another factor, however: Danger.

Both old and new-school D&D provide excitement for their players, but they do this in different ways.

In old-school D&D the excitement comes from the vicarious experience of danger. Characters can die easily, so when your PC escapes the dungeon, there is a real thrill of accomplishment. Also, the vicarious experience of being in danger provides a thrill itself (which is also a partial explanation of the appeal of horror entertainment).

There is also a certain related element of gambling in old-school. The players rolls 3d6 for abilities, and tries to play the resulting character as best they can. It's much like playing a hand of poker, really. You can't control what you're dealt, but you can play your hand well or badly.

New-school D&D is based more on the excitement of experiencing vicarious power. Characters start powerful, and get more powerful. PCs don't die easily. Combat is structured so that players get to use as many of their special powers as possible. The whole game is centered around combat, where the players get to display and experience their special powers. A major part of the game is trying to create the most powerful character possible. The danger to PCs is actually minimal (since everything, including encounters, is scaled to them), and amounts to an excuse to display power.

Old-school D&D also contained a real thread of power fantasy, but the acquisition of power really served to open up whole new levels of danger. The point of becoming a high-level character in AD&D was to perhaps create a stronghold (which the DM would them subject to constant attacks and danger), or be strong enough to challenge demons and divinities (and have the chance to risk an extremely nasty death). In new-school, characters are expected to win. It can still be fun, but its a very different kind of fun.
 


With all due respect to your studies, there's something here that seems to fail a basic Occam's Razor test.

You say that one of the primary reasons adults like fantasy is to recapture this wonder that they have lost.

But children, from the time they learn to use words on up, also like fantasy - Dragons and unicorns, knights and princesses, these are the bread and butter of children's dreams, right? But they are incapable of a desire to recapture the wonder, as they haven't lost it yet. Whatever reason they have for liking fantasy, it isn't recapturing lost wonder.

Occam's Razor says we should not multiply entities when we don't need to. Why do we need a reason beyond the child's (whatever it is) to explain the interest in fantasy?

Or, to put another way - why aren't we talking about a human reason for interest in fantasy. Why separate ones for children and adults?

I like your line of thinking here. Actually, I would say that in a healthier culture than our own the interest in fantasy and imagination would never cease. But in our culture it is generally seen as childish or at least "fringe". Over the last few decades this has begun to change, fortunately.

Why separate children and adults? Because children and adults are fundamentally different. Certainly an adult can include their child-self--just as a nine-year old is still an eight-year old, but with an added year, and with all that entails. But what makes a nine-year old different than an eight-year old? Not a lot but there is something new, something emergent within the ninth year (as an example). A child's experience of reality is very different than an adult's. I think adults often lose sight of this.

So I would continue on with your point by saying there is a spectrum of experience in relationship to fantasy and imagination. Some continue to nourish and develop it, some don't (they "grow up").

The reason that adults need to "re-capture" lost wonder is because they, unlike children, have lost it, at least to some degree. Now for RPG players this is a bit different, but I think it still exists as an outlet, and is perhaps part of the reason people keep on playing. I find it culturally interesting, actually, that RPG players keep on playing, by and large, indefinitely (who knows who will still be playing in their 70s and 80s? RPGs have only been around for, what, 35 years?). Sure, there are tons of people that play a bit in middle school or college then stop and never play again. But for serious fans, once they start they never stop--or if they stop they come back. I think this has something to do with it being an outlet of not only fun, but wonder.

When I say that adults have lost their child-like wonder I don't mean to say that they (we) have completely lost it, but that it becomes less of a pervasive experience and more rarified (again, I'm talking about people in general, not the exceptions to the rule). Our perspective of the world broadens, becomes more complex. S'mon misunderstood what I meant by "Fall" when he equated it narrowly with Biblical Original Sin. The "Fall" occurs in many ways, in different contexts--it is more of a symbol with mult-faceted meanings than a narrow allegory.

We "Fall" when we realize how pervasive suffering is, or when we realize that life isn't what we thought it would be, or even earlier when we realize that we are going to die. The Fall(s) isn't even a negative thing--actually, it is a birth into a wider world. It is just that a lot can be lost, be left behind, be replaced and never found again.

If we're talking about a human reason for fantasy, I think there are many--including the desire of being "filled with wonder", the mystical experience David Zindell talks about as synonymous with a sense of divinity. This isn't why people like rolling dice but it does have something to do, I think, with why people like Story, why people are drawn to magic, mystery, hidden secrets and lost civilizations. It is a kind of tantalization of the mind, like something forever out of reach but pervasive at the same time.

I'm not sure if that addressed your point?
 

Uh, no. Not in any meaningful sense I can discern. I don't think this makes me weird. If anything, I think putting forward this Innocence/Sin/Fall (and consequent loss of SoW) thing out of Genesis as a universal metaphor for puberty is considerably weirder. :erm:

That was not my intention--I think you are solidifying what I said a bit to much. I addressed this in my response to Umbran, but it is also worth noting that the Fall--as I said--isn't only from Genesis but from numerous traditions around the world. Actually, the myth of the Fall from some Golden Age is about as universal a myth as there is. It isn't only about puberty, but puberty is a type of fall, a kind of "emanation", if you will.

Another way to look at what I am pointing at is that we "fall out of" one worldview (or experience of life) and into another. This is often developmental but can also be more of a horizontal movement from one belief system to another. But From birth until at least one's early-to-mid 20s our worldview and experience of life "evolves," it changes in a developmental manner. Newborns literally fall out of the womb; there is anothe major "fall" around 7-10 months old, when an infant becomes particularly strongly bonded to one individual (usually the mother, but not always) and experiences stranger anxiety. And so forth.

Edit: I don't particularly want to go in depth on my childhood development here. But I do recall for a good 5 years pre-puberty (ca 6-10) having a perennial King of the World fantasy where I was attended on as Emperor by legions of identikit (rather 'Addicted to Love' style) spear-carrying Princesses in diaphonous/wet gowns... Aside from my actual physical capabilities and the limits of my practical knowledge, there was nothing 'precursor' about it.

Sure, and I don't think that is weird at all (imaginative, yes ;)). I would argue that sexuality exists even from early on in some form or another, with various stages of activity and latency (Freud goes into this stuff ad nauseum; I don't agree with everything he said about it, but at the least he brought this forward). But puberty is a biological fact, and sexuality doesn't really "awaken" until puberty starts, at least not with such intensity. I would even say that there are possible later stages of sexuality beyond maturation that the vast majority of people never really dive into.

It probably goes without saying that a lot of later issues around sexuality occur when parents, not knowing that there is such a thing as child sexuality, try to stifle it in their own children through shaming them. This is why many people, even into adulthood, feel guilty about masturbation. But there isn't an easy answer; we are always growing in our understanding of who we are, both as individuals and as humanity. At least one would hope!
 

That was not my intention--I think you are solidifying what I said a bit to much. I addressed this in my response to Umbran, but it is also worth noting that the Fall--as I said--isn't only from Genesis but from numerous traditions around the world. Actually, the myth of the Fall from some Golden Age is about as universal a myth as there is. It isn't only about puberty, but puberty is a type of fall, a kind of "emanation", if you will.

Hmm. I think here (and elsewhere) you mix reasonable points up with stuff that doesn't work.

For instance, it's not the case that every culture has a myth of the Golden Age. The Romans, did very strongly. But the Golden Age concept in eg Ovid 's Metamorphoses is not at all a 'Fall', there's no hard-break. Instead there's a gradual transition into Silver and Iron ages as Man becomes meaner and nastier.

Then you have the Greek Prometheus myth - *there* is a hard-break, Prometheus' winning of fire from Mt Olympus. But this is not a Fall, it's clearly Progress, and presented as such.

I'm familiar with Norse mythology and there's no discernable Golden Age, though there is something of a "time when the gods walked among us" which you also see in other cultures.

In any case, these myths may well be about the transition from hunter-gatherer to agricultural society, not internal psychological development.

Puberty floods you with hormones; in boys it puts the sex drive into overdrive. But it's not this hard break from the past, Innocent Child to Sinful Adolescent. I find those kind of ideas pretty yucky - a view which you seem to share later in the post above.

Again, re Sense of Wonder: as Umbran said, we don't initially play to recapture SoW. Whether as a child or teenager, the SoW is pretty effortless. As we get older, the brain-paths slowly harden, and it may become harder to experience SoW. We may then be seeking to recapture it. But we're not playing D&D to be 10 years old again. We may be playing to be 18 years old again, or 21, if that was when we had our best, most fondly remembered games. But unless your first and strongest RPG experiences happened to be right before puberty, puberty has nothing to do with it.
 

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