How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

[pawsplay]

It also occurs to me that - in my parlance, at least - the term NPC has actually changed its meaning over time.

Whereas NPC has now come to mean (in my mind) any character not controlled by a player, it seems that the term used to be used more explicitly with reference to those characters with PC-class levels:

i.e.

the 3rd level Dwarf fighter is an NPC
Bob the barman is a Normal Man, or "scenery", or an element in the game - but not an NPC in any significant sense.

Does anyone else perceive this shift of emphasis in meaning, or is it just me? I am not suggesting a hard divide here; simply more of an emphasis.

That is correct. Although other games treated the term differently, 3e was the first edition of D&D to consistently refer to all non-PCs as NPCs; previous editions generally referred to a 2 HD Veteran or a 1d4 hit point Normal Man as a "monster," although this had no significance except as to how you detailed their characteristics (for instance, no abilities other than Intelligence, and great strength only by inference from having a bonus to hit or damage).

It's also worth noting that a 1 HD monster has all the capabilities of a 1st level fighter in OD&D. In a few cases "monsters" are noted as actually being Fighters. Taken together with the notion that, in addition to these Veterans and Brigands running around, there were explictly knights who were 1st level fighters, it should be clear that NPCs with class levels are not unusual, Fighters even less so than most. Anyone who can pick pockets absolutely must be a Thief in AD&D, or some special "monster" with thief abilities. In the absence of particularly distinguishing characteristics, a 1st level fighter is a competent, but generally rather ordinary being. If he makes it to 2nd level he becomes exceptional. It's not until 3rd level he really qualifies as particularly heroic.

What makes wizards different, in AD&D, is that, basically, teachers or books are hard to find, and a certain slice of the population lacks the Intelligence to reliably learn any spells. 3e carries this idea forward, with spellcasting ability depending on a Ability Score such as a wizard's Intelligence. Being a 1st level wizard isn't more of an accomplishment than getting a Bachelor's degree, or self-teaching a trade. In the Dying Earth, learning a simple spell required only literacy, although the unc-clever were likely to die of overly ambitious efforts.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

...teachers or books are hard to find, and a certain slice of the population lacks the Intelligence to reliably learn any spells.

And literacy was not a given. Even a smart person with a magic book would be up a creek if they weren't able to read it.

 

[Hussar]

There was an assertion put forth by some that the game had hardwired assumptions that said PCs by definition could not be "fresh off the turnip farm." This is a statement about cetain backstories being, essentially, nonsense as far as D&D is concerned.

Except that Jeanne has exactl that kind of backstory.

Can you explain how Jeanne is different from Spider Man? What training did she undergo a la Batman to become that Paladin 1?

I.e., no Jack from Jack in the Beanstalk for you, my friend. Uh uh. Apparently, the game can't support it.

Umm, why would Jack be a fighter? He never wears armor, never attacks anything and his one act of violence is chopping down a beanstalk. 0 level peasant all the way.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Umm, why would Jack be a fighter? He never wears armor, never attacks anything and his one act of violence is chopping down a beanstalk. 0 level peasant all the way.

A fighter is a fighter without armour. A fighter is a fighter whether or not he is attacking anyone. And a fighter is a fighter even if he is only attacking a beanstalk.

But you're right in one thing; Jack shouldn't be considered a fighter. Jack is a normal human who becomes a thief (1e parlance) or rogue (3e parlance), making great use of his skills to climb, hide, move silently, and steal various items from the giant and his wife. Moreover, in a 3e game, he makes great use of Bluff.

But perhaps we are imagining our new PC to be Farmer Giles of Ham, who begins his career by shooting a blunderbuss at a giant (who thinks the bugs are fierce outside the mountains, and goes home).

Or perhaps our new PC starts as a woodcutter, who ends up using his woodsman's axe to save a girl in a red hood from a wolf, and saves Granny in the process.

"My imagination is strong enough to play an elf, a dwarf, or a flumph. I can accept beholders and dragons, and don't blink at the ecology of this here dungeon, but I can't wrap my mind around Bob the 1st-level Fighter having started out as some turnip farmer.....Nosiree! That's just too fantastic!"

Sorry, but I just don't believe it.

"I prefer to think of my PCs as something special, even from the word Go......"

Yep. That I believe.

".......And if you don't think of your PCs in the same way, you're doing it all wrong....."

Sorry. Nope. Don't believe that at all.



RC

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Can you explain how Jeanne is different from Spider Man? What training did she undergo a la Batman to become that Paladin 1?

I brought her up, not because she received training- she didn't- but because she's a perfect exemplar of 2 types of hero mentioned in the thread:

1. Due is a "Fantasy Hero" from the moment she dons armor and picks up a sword in the service of God for the French.
2. Literally the day before she did that, she was a farmhand.

 

[Hussar]

I brought her up, not because she received training- she didn't- but because she's a perfect exemplar of 2 types of hero mentioned in the thread:

1. Due is a "Fantasy Hero" from the moment she dons armor and picks up a sword in the service of God for the French.
2. Literally the day before she did that, she was a farmhand.

Peter Parker is a teenage geek on the day before he gets bitten by a radioactive spider. The day after, he's Spider-man.

How is Spider-man superhuman but Jeanne D'Arc not?

"My imagination is strong enough to play an elf, a dwarf, or a flumph. I can accept beholders and dragons, and don't blink at the ecology of this here dungeon, but I can't wrap my mind around Bob the 1st-level Fighter having started out as some turnip farmer.....Nosiree! That's just too fantastic!"

That's a bit of a strawman though. Bob the turnip farmer IS NOT A 1st level fighter. That's right there, in black and white, in the rules. We're not making this up. This isn't some way out there reinterpretation of the rules. It's RIGHT FREAKING THERE. Bob the Turnip Farmer is a 0 level normal human or a 1st level commoner.

By the time Bob the Turnip Farmer is a 1st level fighter, he hasn't been a turnip farmer for some time. AND once he becomes that 1st level fighter, he's now capable of things that none of his peers are capable of. He is quantitatively superhuman at this point. He can survive damage that will outright kill any of his peers. He has knowledge that none of his peers, no matter how much they train, can ever have (a commoner can practice with a sword 15 hours a day for ten years and he still can't specialize in that weapon until such time as he STOPS being a commoner and STARTS being a fighter).

Any leveled character, whether PC or NPC, by virtue of HAVING LEVELS IN PC CLASSES, is no longer a normal human. That character is quatifiably (and I keep repeating that because it's important - you can actually, in game terms, MEASURE how much better that character is) better than any normal human as defined by the system in question.

The woodcutter in Little Red Riding Hood could easily be modeled by a 3e commoner class - he only uses 1 weapon, uses no armor and only uses a single skill to skin a wolf.

Now, if the woodcutter then takes up arms and armor, starts using a bow and leads a pack of desperate men against the Sherrif, he stops being a commoner and now he's a PC class.

Unless you want to claim that the greatest bowman ever (Robin Hood of legend (not history)) is just a normal human.

Which brings it back around to why this conversation can't go forward.

Spider man is a superhuman. He is capable of superhuman things. But, apparently Batman is just a normal guy, despite being capable of superhuman things. Jeanne D'arc is just a normal human, despite being chosen by God and having all her strength flow from that.

And around and around we go.

 

[pawsplay]

Peter Parker is a teenage geek on the day before he gets bitten by a radioactive spider. The day after, he's Spider-man.

How is Spider-man superhuman but Jeanne D'Arc not?

Because she wasn't bitten by a radioactive virgin?...

...

Ok, let's ask the audience on this one. What do you all think?

That's a bit of a strawman though. Bob the turnip farmer IS NOT A 1st level fighter. That's right there, in black and white, in the rules. We're not making this up. This isn't some way out there reinterpretation of the rules. It's RIGHT FREAKING THERE. Bob the Turnip Farmer is a 0 level normal human or a 1st level commoner.

Where does it say in the rules that Bob the Turnip Farmer is a 0 level Normal Man? He may come from good Normal Man stock, but he could still be a 1st level fighter. Every D&D edition I am aware of posits that a certain percentage of any human settlement are, in fact, 1st level warriors. Whetber by training or talent, Bob could be one of them.

Observe:

Bob d'Turnippe
Human Fighter 1
Str 15, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (longspear), Combat Reflexes
Skills: Climb 4 (+5), Handle Animal 4 (+3), Profession (farming) 4 (+4), Ride 4 (+5).

Is that a problem for you?

Or how about
Bob d'Turnippe
Fighter 1
Str 15, Dex 12, Con 13, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 8
Weapon Choices: spear (Basic), sword (Basic), club (Basic), dagger (Basic)
General Skills: Labor (Farming) (Wis), Muscle (Str), Profession (teamster) (Int), Riding (Horse) (Dex)

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

How is Spider-man superhuman but Jeanne D'Arc not?

Whether she is or not (there is no need to go back into that quagmire, since I already said she is a Fantasy Hero from the moment she acquiesced to God) is immaterial: the point was she's farmer day N and fully skilled Holy Warrior day N+1, a backstory you insisted earlier D&D is hardwired against.

 

[fanboy2000]

Because she wasn't bitten by a radioactive virgin?...

...

Ok, let's ask the audience on this one. What do you all think?

Well, Joan's powers were charisma and military strategy. Not exactly beyond mortal ken. By contrast, spiderman can stick to walls without special equipment, avoid dangerous situation even when not paying attention, and pick-up a car and drop it on you if he feels like it.

The Maid of Orleans is more awesome than any superhero, FWIW, because she's a real person. Superheros don't exist in the world, that's why they're called superheros and not just heroes.

 

[Hussar]

Whether she is or not (there is no need to go back into that quagmire, since I already said she is a Fantasy Hero from the moment she acquiesced to God) is immaterial: the point was she's farmer day N and fully skilled Holy Warrior day N+1, a backstory you insisted earlier D&D is hardwired against.

No, it's not.

Jeanne becomes a paladin through Deus Ex Machina (quite literally) and not through training, as you originally posited.

If she was a farmer on day N and a paladin on day N+1 without the intervention of a god, then you would have a point.

Kinda the same way that Peter Parker is a normal person on day N and Spider Man on day N+1. Or Bruce Banner is a normal scientiest on day N and The HULK on day N+1.

In other words these characters become legendary and super-human, not through anything inherent to the character itself, but rather through some sort of outside intervention creating the exceptional character.

Pretty much the same way a DM can declare that a normal human is no longer a normal human but now has PC class abilities.

Bob the turnip farmer is bob the zero level normal human or 1st level commoner on day N and will remain so forever until the DM decrees that he is no longer a normal human and grants him a PC class.

Even in 3e, he's still a Commoner (although he might gain levels in that particular class) or a Warrior (possibly, and he can gain levels in that class as well) unless the DM decrees that he's an exceptional individual and gains a PC class and not an NPC class.