How is the Wizard vs Warrior Balance Problem Handled in Fantasy Literature?

NoWayJose

First Post
Maybe there's a group of Vampires in the game, though, that are a lot stronger than all the other groups. Perhaps this is due to a design decision that made them stronger, even though the game's fluff says that this group of Vampires isn't very strong. I would view that as a big problem with the system, because design intent doesn't match the design result.

But, maybe this Vampire game says explicitly that this group of Vampires is supposed to be stronger. Maybe they have other rules or narrative situations that give other Vampires a chance to shine(sparkle?). That's not a problem with the system, then. Maybe they don't have rules to control this powerful group, but still have stated their expectation upfront. I feel better about the game because intent matches results.

Now that's for a game I don't like.
"Stronger" is subjective. If one vampire is physically stronger, but the other vampire is mentally stronger, then there's a potential for balance. So not a great example. People sometimes nitpick over such analogies, like the pirate captain, you can get painted into a corner.

I don't need anyone to change, but I want as many pro-balance voices expressing themselves as possible.
I don't need anyone to change, but I want as many anti-pro-balance voices expressing themselves as possible.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
"Stronger" is subjective. If one vampire is physically stronger, but the other vampire is mentally stronger, then there's a potential for balance. So not a great example. People sometimes nitpick over such analogies, like the pirate captain, you can get painted into a corner.

Well, my example was of objective imbalance, like Mages in Ars Magica.

I don't need anyone to change, but I want as many anti-pro-balance voices expressing themselves as possible.

Wouldn't that just be anti-balance? Or you could call yourselves "pro-spotlight" or "pro-archetype" or something. Politically, it's never good to brand your something as "anti-something".
 

Crazy Jerome

First Post
No, the players have as much, if not more resposibility than the designers. Why are we relying on the designers to make rules against face-dribbling when players should have perfect sense not to do so themselves?

Back on the knock example; this isn't only the tool of the wizard. The rogue can pick the lock, the fighter can bash the door in. The problem comes in the fact it takes the fighter or the rogue a minute or two to do so. The wizard does it in a matter of seconds, and without a check of some sort. Supposably, this was balanced by the fact the wizard would only be doing this maybe once an adventure, whereas the fighter or rogue could employ their door-opening skill at any time.

Somewhere along the way though, people started arguing the wizard was broken because he could things like this any and every time it came up, often forgetting that D&D isn't played as one encounter per day and the wizard whose blown his all his spell allotment on these kind of things is going to get eaten by the grue on the other side of the door.

This is where I say that your statements, and Jeff Wilder's about it only being a problem if the wizard player is a douche, or the GM incompetent, or such, are too absolute.

It is true that at given levels (the infamous sweet spot), what you say is more or less true. The exact sweet spot moves a bit from table to table (which ought to tell us something in itself).

I'm not an incompetent DM on this issue. I may not be Thor's gift to DMing, but let us just stipulate that I'm not incompetent. Resource consumption? I had them doing 6-8 encounters per day, and not usually easy ones, either--in a campaign that made it somewhat difficult, compared to RAW, to stockpile scrolls, wands, etc.

I haven't had a douche player at my table for at least a decade. Quite the opposite, in fact, as the players are bending over backwards to make it work (whatever it is.) We had a wizard start to dominate a campaign around 7th level, and it got steadily and noticeably worse as the campaign went on--right up to 15th level where it fell apart due to sheer frustration. Notably, we did not have a cleric nor a druid in that campaign.

There are two objections to the kind of "jumping through hoops" that gets required to keep this from becoming a problem, once you get outside the sweet spot, though:

1. This is work that the DM is spending on managing the potential wizard or other caster domination that is not being spent on something more productive.

2. There is a peculiar knife edge that the wizard (or cleric or druid) player has to walk, especially if the DM is putting in that work. It is not simply take imperfect spells or make imperfect selections during a fight. Rather, it is make a snap judgment on each encounter to see if the DM is pushing the casters or not. If the DM is pushing, then unleash the big guns--otherwise the party is so hosed. If the DM is not pushing, hold back to keep from overshadowing the other characters.

And note that as a group, we don't even mind having an occasional cake walk encounter or one where the party has to flee, perhaps leaving a dead comrade behind.

This is not about dribbling with your face in basketball. This is your local basketball league makes you text message during key moments in the game. Sure you can deal with that complicaton same as all the other people. It's fair. It's a team effort. But excuse some of us for thinking perhaps this should not be a central requirement in the spirit of basketball. :hmm:
 

NoWayJose

First Post
Wouldn't that just be anti-balance? Or you could call yourselves "pro-spotlight" or "pro-archetype" or something. Politically, it's never good to brand your something as "anti-something".
I can play some semantics here. Technically, I'm OK with balance, just not neccesarily the way it's implemented. So "anti-balance" doesn't sound right. "Pro-balance", rightly or wrongly, implies to me that one is happy with balance the way it is implemented (ie., in 4e). Therefore, I thought "anti-pro-balance" might be the best label. I am "pro-archetype" but it's not that simple. "Pro-spotlight" implies that the spotlight is always fixed on one point or person, but I'm OK for the spotlight(s) changing around.
 

Jeff Wilder

First Post
Hopefully, you can see where I am in the middle ground of "I like parts of this, and if it just had some more of this, it would be awesome!"
I can, and if this had been the prevalent tone of the criticism here, I would never have even gotten involved in the thread.

Fair enough. Fortunately for both of us, you have core 3e and I have houseruled 3e and 4e.
Actually, I have Pathfinder. (I've never claimed 3E was perfect, right?)

Also fair enough. Lots of games get along just fine with spotlight balance. Not my cup of tea, personally, and I'm glad 4e moved towards a more rigorous approach. Again, IMO, YMMV, etc, etc.
It does, but -- really -- that's okay.

I can also understand your desire to evangelize for "pro-balance," BTW, from personal experience. Even ongoing personal experience. But -- and I don't want it to come off smarmy -- I honestly stopped worrying about affirmatively or negatively evangelizing once I realized that I have plenty of friends and acquaintances -- new and old -- that are clamoring to play Pathfinder and Mutants & Masterminds*. It's selfish, I suppose, but I just don't care anymore what game anybody chooses to play.

(* And dude, if you think 3E has hidden balance issues that can cripple the game, M&M would make your head explode. And yet I love it.)
 

MrMyth

First Post
Well, no ... maybe you do. Many, many, many of us do not.

For some reason, you feel that of three alternatives -- (a) stop playing the way you play, (b) find a game that suits you better, or (c) force the rest of us to accept (or just acknowledge some need for) a change we don't need -- you guys go for (c).

Sure, it isn't a universal experience. But many players clearly do find this to be a potential issue with a game they otherwise enjoy. Here's the thing - I'm not saying that (c) is that you need to accept my problem with the game. I'm saying that (c) is that I would prefer to see the game change to a version that I consider an improvement.

It is perfectly fine for you to disagree with that, and prefer a different version. But what you instead seem to be saying is that my prefered style of play is wrong, or that it only becomes a problem because the people who enjoy that style of play are douchebags. Which, the potential offense of such a view aside, I don't find especially conductive to reasonable conversation.

Again, this isn't a coincidence.

Seriously, what do you mean by this? Do you really genuinely feel that the only people who have voiced this complaint are a certain subset of players who embrace powergaming, or play only to 'win'?

Or, if you are implying something else, what is it?

No, the players have as much, if not more resposibility than the designers. Why are we relying on the designers to make rules against face-dribbling when players should have perfect sense not to do so themselves?

Because, again, it isn't always obvious what options are unbalanced (or, at least, potentially unbalanced). It isn't always clear what spells will enhance the game experience (by helping the entire party accomplish their goals, or by revealing interesting things about the game) vs which ones will trivialize the other PC's efforts, or bypass the entertainment of intrigue/investigative scenarios with a single spell.

I mean, I honestly will admit I know next to nothing about face-dribbling. I have no idea how often such a thing occurs to players or would be considered a viable tactic in a game.

But the choices we are discussing are presented in the core rules, by the designers, as completely valid choices.

And some players prefer that, because they are ok with that style or play or have found ways around it. That's the tricky question here - is there a way to mitigate the potential frustrations they cause for some players without removing their capabilities entirely?

Either way, though, I still don't buy that the burden should be on the players. They should be able to trust in the quality of the rules, that what they are playing with will lead to a good experience when handled as presented. Now, that isn't an absolutely guarantee, of course, and every group will have its own dynamics and elements... but this clearly isn't an isolated case, or one that can be casually solved by common-sense alone.

Back on the knock example; this isn't only the tool of the wizard. The rogue can pick the lock, the fighter can bash the door in. The problem comes in the fact it takes the fighter or the rogue a minute or two to do so. The wizard does it in a matter of seconds, and without a check of some sort. Supposably, this was balanced by the fact the wizard would only be doing this maybe once an adventure, whereas the fighter or rogue could employ their door-opening skill at any time.

Somewhere along the way though, people started arguing the wizard was broken because he could things like this any and every time it came up, often forgetting that D&D isn't played as one encounter per day and the wizard whose blown his all his spell allotment on these kind of things is going to get eaten by the grue on the other side of the door.

Which is why other elements come into play - the ability to easily have a scroll for every occasion.

Or, honestly, the fact that even without one, the Wizard starts to have a good number of spells by higher levels. Even if he spends half his spells on solving various obstacles that the rest of the party would have liked to interact with, he still can then potentially solve the combats on the other end of the door with one or two carefully chosen spells as well.

Again, this isn't a universal scenario, and there are ways to mitigate it by bother players and DMs. I still feel, for me, that I would like this sort of thing addressed in the rules and mechanics themselves.
 

TwoSix

Dirty, realism-hating munchkin powergamer
I can play some semantics here. Technically, I'm OK with balance, just not neccesarily the way it's implemented. So "anti-balance" doesn't sound right. "Pro-balance", rightly or wrongly, implies to me that one is happy with balance the way it is implemented (ie., in 4e). Therefore, I thought "anti-pro-balance" might be the best label. I am "pro-archetype" but it's not that simple. "Pro-spotlight" implies that the spotlight is always fixed on one point or person, but I'm OK for the spotlight(s) changing around.

Fair enough. I'm "pro-team balance", whereas each player can make contributions of rough equivalence in each phase of the game. I wouldn't think of "pro-spotlight" as "pro-static spotlight", because nobody rationally favors that. "Pro-spotlight" is "the game is balanced enough if everyone makes a contribution during the session."
 

Jeff Wilder

First Post
But what you instead seem to be saying is that my prefered style of play is wrong, or that it only becomes a problem because the people who enjoy that style of play are douchebags.
No, what I am saying is very, very, very simple:

If it hurts when you do X, stop doing X. Or choose a system in which it doesn't hurt when you do X.

Instead, you choose to keep doing X, and to continue to whine about it. It's just ... ridiculous. There's not another word for it.

I don't find especially conductive to reasonable conversation.
The possibility for reasonable conversation -- with some of you -- went out the door when you began insisting that the system cater to you, rather than recognizing that (a) a lot of people like the way the system is, and (b) there are other systems for you to choose.

Do you really genuinely feel that the only people who have voiced this complaint are a certain subset of players who embrace powergaming, or play only to 'win'?
No, although there are certainly one or two of those in this thread. But I do genuinely feel that some form of player douchebaggery and GM permissiveness is at the heart of these complaints. That doesn't make you the douchebag or the milquetoast. You could -- and I'm being sincere -- be a victim of the douchebag-milquetoast combo. (Why am I craving s'mores all the sudden?)

I mean, I honestly will admit I know next to nothing about face-dribbling. I have no idea how often such a thing occurs to players or would be considered a viable tactic in a game.
It probably happens sometimes in that D&D with Porn Stars game.
 

Votan

Explorer
Hard to do, yeah, kinda. But I choose to complain about the skill system in this case, which is easily remedied, rather than insisting he belongs to some other archetype. Since he does, you know, steal stuff, I might accept a level of Rogue, but only under duress; he doesn't really do any of the things people normally use Rogue for, apart from having lots of skill points. Hence I prefer to just burn a couple of feats. Ranger... that's so meta. He's not a Ranger. Favored Enemy (humans) is sort of cute, but Track is not.

Okay, I grant you track does seem out of place. :)

I agree that the 3E skill system really did scream for tweaking. It was a pretty large advance at the time but, like many novel things, there were implications that needed to be worked out.
 

NoWayJose

First Post
Confessions of an anti-pro-balance person

A competitive boardgame like Axis and Allies should have a fair and even playing field (I'm sure there's many game theories out there about why people feel they should win or lose based purely on skill and/or luck).

However, in a cooperative rpg like D&D, I don't fret so much about fairness.

Life isn't fair, and so maybe life in an RPG doesn't need to be 100% fair either, in terms of simulating in-game fiction. Like any good sci-fi/fantasy movie, the feeling of versimilitude and immersion can generate a wonderfully satisfying impression that gently washes over other meta-issues.

In story-telling, you can have some exciting dramatic moments when a character who is weak or underutilized in certain circumstances finds his niche and proudly makes a name for himself.

My parents told me: don't compare yourself to other people (OK, it's not that simple, but over-comparing can be erroneous and unhealthy, creates unhappiness, and is generally a self-destructive habit). Perhaps people who are really, really, really obsessed over game balance just might be a bit too concerned about comparing their characters to others. It only needs to be as competitive as much as you can make it out to be.

Mechanically, I like balanced systems, because I don't like the conflict of interest of having to decide between an optimal mechanical build vs a preferred fictional build. It also depends how obvious is the balance discrepancy. I think it's possible to obsess a bit too much over a +1 or -1 here or there, since having lots of fun in-game can often override those small probabilities.

I don't agree with the 4E paradigm that it's the most fun if everyone feels equally useful all the time. Part of fun in life is the waiting and hoping. Looking forward to that restaurant meal, hoping that lottery ticket will win, hoping the next punch will land a KO, etc. If everyone gets exactly what they think they want all the time, well, there's a word for that: spoiled.

Secondly, for everyone to be equally useful all the time, it splits the spotlight. Now instead of one bright spotlight that shifts around, you have multiple weak spotlights. The ebb and flow of dramatic moments is now more like a ripple, instead of a wave. Waves are generally more fun and dramatic and combat-realistic for me than ripples.

All that said, I would still be OK with balance depending on the implementation and measurement.

At one extreme, you can have a world class chef and a champion UFC fighter and call them balanced because they are elite in their respective categories, but if the game takes place primarily in the octagon, then it's not really all that balanced.

At the other extreme, you can have a green-painted UFC fighter and a blue-painted UFC fighter and call them balanced, but this is an undesired implementation if you don't want to play a UFC fighter with different coats of paint.

At one extreme, you can have pure free market capitalism with a wide gap between the haves and have-nots.

At the other extreme, you can have the Communist People's Department of Equal Opportunity Happiness and no TV and no western food and everyone being equal and the same.

For myself, in my humble subjective opinion, I personally believe that 4E addressed the balance issue by making moving everyone close together so that it's easier to compare and measure for balance, and that's not an implementation I can agree with in its current form and extent.

I would like to see one set of rules for mundane combat, and another layer of rules for magic, and allow them to be different, allow all that colour and variety and contrast to yield something wonderful.
 

Remove ads

Top