How many are playing SAGA?

[Li Shenron]

I don't understand why so many people are implying that nearly everything that is in SW SAGA is automatically good for 4e :\ But there are people who basically take it for granted that "if they are using it in SAGA, then it certainly works".

Who is currently playing SAGA? How long have you played it? It doesn't seem to me it's been out for long enough.

So let us know how good that ruleset is, and why do you think it's so superior to 3ed. Convince us that it's closer to perfection than any previous ruleset.

If there is any mechanical problem with SAGA, let us know so that we'll check whether 4e changes it already or not.

And possibly also point out why do you think that some SAGA rules does or does not port well to D&D.

 

[Nightchilde-2]

I don't understand why so many people are implying that nearly everything that is in SW SAGA is automatically good for 4e :\ But there are people who basically take it for granted that "if they are using it in SAGA, then it certainly works".

Who is currently playing SAGA? How long have you played it? It doesn't seem to me it's been out for long enough.

I'm playing Star Wars Saga Edition.

So let us know how good that ruleset is, and why do you think it's so superior to 3ed. Convince us that it's closer to perfection than any previous ruleset.

It's streamlined. It takes tons less time to make characters, even higher-level NPCs. Setting up encounters is is more intuitive and easier to do. Even the handing-out-XP system is rockin'. Characters get to do more stuff, because they have more stuff to do (what with all the feats, bonus feats and talents). The Talent Trees really help to individualize the characters (I have two transdoshan soldiers in my party, but they excel in completely and utterly different areas). The Defense system, where the player rolls all attacks and "saves" for the NPCs, is more proactive and interactive for the players involved. There are fewer dice rolls. Combat is much quicker and cleaner. Characters at 1st level are better able to survive. Nobody feels left out (i.e. there's not the whole thing of "well, I'm playing a rogue but I can't crit that golem" or the whole "I'm out of spells for the day so I'll sit here like a lump" problem). Nonheroic NPC class rocks my face. The vehicle and starship combat rules are pretty intuitive, as they treat vehicular combat as if the vehicles were characters. Characters are less reliant on items, but it sure is nice to have a 3d8 blaster rifle over a 3d6 blaster pistol..but it's not a necessity. Also, the Wookie's rage mechanic would work awesome as the new barbarian (or fighter talent tree?) mechanic as it's much easier. +1 bonus to TWO attributes every four levels. Force Points (action points in D&D) worked into the framework of the game from the beginning is an awesome idea.

Did I mention that the per-encounter framework for Force Powers rocks toast? I didn't? It does! It means, among other things (see the "useless" comment above) that the party doesn't fight one or two encounters and then have to rest for 8 hours.

If there is any mechanical problem with SAGA, let us know so that we'll check whether 4e changes it already or not.

The whole "everyone in an area either saves or everyone fails" issue takes a little getting used to.

And possibly also point out why do you think that some SAGA rules does or does not port well to D&D.

Armor is too useless (unless you're either low-level or a soldier with the right talents) in Star Wars. This will not work in D&D, as the armored character is too intrinsic to the game.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

I'm just starting in a SW Saga Edition campaign (not SAGA; that was the card-based game), so it's too early for me to comment much about the game. Character creation, however, is very smooth and streamlined, and there are a plenty of options available without things getting confusing. (I'm an old hand at D&D, but I appreciate ease of character creation, and it's going to be very good for newbies.)

 

[Nightchilde-2]

I forgot. Let's say your wizard throws a fireball at a group of six orcs in the old 3.x. The DM then gets to make 6 saving throws. Even rolling all six dice at the same time, reading the results and applying them takes 6x longer than the player rolling one "attack" roll and comparing it to all six orcs' Reflex defenses. That's one example of the streamlining. And in the long term, that speeds things up quite a bit.

Also, no need to confirm a critical (i.e. natural 20 = crit with no threat confirmation needed) cuts out a pretty useless die roll as well.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Did I mention that the per-encounter framework for Force Powers rocks toast? I didn't? It does! It means, among other things (see the "useless" comment above) that the party doesn't fight one or two encounters and then have to rest for 8 hours.

And this is one aspect that I don't think would translate over well to 4E. In regards to magic of course.

 

[RigaMortus2]

The whole "everyone in an area either saves or everyone fails" issue takes a little getting used to.

This isn't necessarily true. People can have different Defense ratings (generally when fighting mooks, they do tend to have the same defense, but not always the PCs). Also, there are other facts involved in area effects. Some of the targets of an area effect might have cover (which would add to their defense). Some may have evasion. Some may be able to Block the area effect (a Jedi talent).

 

[Flynn]

First, I don't think it's anyone's responsibility to convince anyone else about the merits or flaws of a gaming system, since we all have different tastes. If someone tells me that I have to convince them, my first impression is that, since no one is forcing them to do anything, it's not my job to "convince" them, and the use of that word with emphasis may tend to across as challenging and potentially confrontational in a written environment. It is your right and your responsibility to make decisions in these regards, and I am not going to be the one to take that responsibility away from you. Or, as my grandma used to say, "You're a big boy. You can make up your own mind."

Now, having said that, I can offer you some observations that I've had in my few playtests of Saga that I think will lend itself to improving a D20-based game. If they help you make a decision for yourself, that's great. The best advice I can give, though, is to play it yourself and see what you think of it. It'll either work for you or it won't, and no amount of "convincing" is going to change your tastes.

I find that the new Saga Edition system speeds up game play dramatically. In a 2nd level playtest I ran, over the course of 3.5 hours, we did the following: engaged in five combats (involving various NPCs and one beast encounter), engaged in two roleplaying scenes, performed some wilderness exploration scenes and exposition, and completed an adventure. In a 10th level playtest I ran, over the course of 4 hours, we: engaged in four battles (one against droids, one against NPCs, one against Dark Siders and one space battle), engaged in one roleplaying scene, performed one technical exposition scene, and completed an adventure. Both went smoothly, both offered more action in the same amount of gaming time than other D20 systems at those levels, and both were exciting scenarios supported by the rules. The rules captured the feel of the Star Wars universe very well. Jedi were balanced against other classes, characters were interesting and diverse, and character creation took no more than 15-20 minutes per character, even at 10th level with choosing five talents and seven feats and getting all the stats down on the character sheet. I had fun and the players had fun.

For me, it's a good thing: The game runs faster, so I get more done in a single gaming session. The character classes are balanced. The RP was cinematic, something I enjoy. Despite the streamlining, the characters had options, and they were quick to build, which made my job as GM very easy. There's much less work to do to prep as a GM with Saga than with other D20 games, for the level of diversity you get out of your work. (I have found that 3EW/v3.5 is hard on DMs with limited prep time; not so with Saga.) I can honestly say that, in my opinion, should most, if not all, of these elements are duplicated in spirit in 4E, then I feel I will enjoy the new system. I am reserving judgment on 4E until I see the actual rules, though.

I honestly can't tell you if the Saga rules changes will improve your own particular enjoyment of D&D. I can tell you that I think it will, at least in my case, and that I feel strongly enough about it that I am actively working on an OGL rules set that captures that Saga feel with the current fantasy rules. (See my sig for details.)

As they say, YMMV, of course. Good luck with your quest for knowledge, and please consider trying it yourself before you make a final decision.

Enjoy,
Flynn

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I've done one 2 session one shot and one 3 session one shot, 1 session = approx 5 hours.

Things I don't like about saga:
1) Skills can become too good too soon, this is especially true for Jedi.
In 4e they've already said they aren't using saga's skill system, at least not exactly.
2) Nobles, a class built around being support/leader type, has few abilities that actually rely on charisma. Talents I think should be tied to ability scores.
3) Pretty sure using a ranged weapon in melee doesn't provoke and attack of oppurtuniy. Easy to houserule.
4) Armor doesn't help a high level character with out that character gaining 2 specific soldier talents. In fact armor hinders a high level character because without the armor defense talent you always take your armor bonus instead of you level defense bonus.
Easy to house rule armor defense for all characters. But won't work with d&d whose flavor has something to do with most characters wearing a variety of armor.
5) Can't use skill training feat to gain a skill not on your class skill list. Easy to house rule.
6) It's possible to get reflex defense very high at high levels making a character nearly unhittable. The level bonus to defense should proably be 3/4 level instead of just level.

Overall I really like saga though. Fun to play. Hopefully 4e will take the good stuff that will work in D&D from it and throw away or modify the rest.

 

[Greylock]

The only person I know who runs Star Wars still uses the 1st Edition D20 rules. Not the revised rules, and definitely not the Saga rules.

That says a lot about the likelihood of anyone in my circle of friends hopping on the 4e train.

 

[drothgery]

Who is currently playing SAGA? How long have you played it?

I've been running a SW Saga game for the last month or so (once/wk), because the DM for our 17th-level D&D 3.5 game was getting rather overwhelmed, and I really wanted to try the system out.

So let us know how good that ruleset is, and why do you think it's so superior to 3ed. Convince us that it's closer to perfection than any previous ruleset.

Most of the ways that, on paper, SWSE seems superior to 3.x are really more about mid to high-level play. Since my SWSE players just hit level 4, we haven't really tested things in practice. And I'm an inexperienced tabletop DM; I can't really tell how running 3.5 at a tabletop compares to running SWSE. So with a big stack of disclaimers...

- Characters get something beyond BAB, hit points, and saves, err, defenses, at every level, which means leveling up is fun for everyone. As opposed to my warmage hitting 17th level and going 'meh'.
- Largely eliminating multiple attacks makes combat run a lot more smoothly (and this is a big problem for the warrior types in our D&D games)
- The skill system is a lot easier to deal with when you're crafting NPCs or high-level characters from scratch, and seems to be at the same level of granuality as the rest of d20; skill points always seemed much more fine-grained than any other subsystem in the game. And there's at least a slim chance nonproficient characters may be good enough to do things (no PC in my group knows treat injury, and neither does the Padawan's master... this has resulted in some trying experiences with medpacks).
- a small set of more flexible classes works pretty well as a starting point

If there is any mechanical problem with SAGA, let us know so that we'll check whether 4e changes it already or not.

The progression of the Use the Force skill and defenses (and any other skill rolled against a defense) don't mesh very well. Some of this is by design (when high level Jedi/Sith duke it out in the movies, it usually resolves as a lightsaber duel), but it means the Force is very effective against stormtroopers and useless against Darth Vader.

And possibly also point out why do you think that some SAGA rules does or does not port well to D&D.

Well, as per above the magic system wouldn't really work as a simple port of the Force; for failure rates that make more sense in D&D, I think you'd either need to redo skill progressions or change the 'magic attack bonus' to something that used a different progression than skills.

As others have noted, due to genre conventions in Star Wars, using armor effectively at high levels takes a significant investment in character resources (at least one feat and two talents).

And defenses outrun offense at high levels. Which would probably be a big problem if you're normally adding armor and magic on top of them.