How many are playing SAGA?

[Imaro]

Two things I had a problem with in Star Wars saga ed.

1.) I have run into a slight problem with multi-class characters who are not combat-oriented. Their BAB will always be lower than a single classed character of the same level. This isn't a majopr problem, but multiclassing is promoted in SW as the way to make the type of character you want(because you get access to skills and talents you need to customize the character you want). An example of this is...

1. A noble2/scout1/scoundrel1 character. (Noble who is hunted by the empire, travels in the rougher "wilderness of space" and returns to "civilized" space intent on avoiding the empire by their quick wits and charisma.). The problem you run into is that this character has a base attk bonus of +1 at 4th level. Now to give some perspective, at level 4 a straight noble has a +3 BAB(soldier/jedis have a +4). It seems like becoming a scout or scoundrel would increase you BAB to higher then that of a straight noble, or at least equal it. It creates a pretty big discrepancy between what single classed character find a challenge to hit and what multi-class characters will find a challenge to hit. J ust something to warn your players about if they need to multi-class alot to create a specific archetype they want.

2. Skill levels can be made almost insanely high at 1st level. I found this moreeso a problem with human jedi(hopefully it will be different with spell casters in D&D 4e). A 1st level human jedi who gets an 18 in Wis, takes Use the force trained and then takes skill focus for use the force can end up with a skill total of +13. Take force training twice and this gives him 2X(1+Wis mod powers) or 8. This allows a 1st level jedi to take 4 offensive powers, 2 to 3 defensive powers and 1 to 2 healer powers which can be used in every encounter. with 2 to 3 jedi that's quite a bit to handle without resorting to specific circumstances designed to negate his powers and skill levels. An Example...

Quick Noteeople will claim this is a very specific build, but my players(two of which had never played a roleplaying game before) all realized this build was the most effective almost automatically. I like that it's easier to see good combinations in Star Wars but the design of the game should take that into consideration.

Against a CL5 clone trooper commander(Ref 18, Fort 17, Will 17)...a 1st level jedi will succeed on powers used against them 75 to 80% of the time. Now, take into consideration that a CL5 opponent is suppose to be a challenge for a level 5 character and this is really weird to me. I mean jedi are powerful, but I didn't expect this type of power from the get go.

This is only slightly powered down for the powers with a set DC, with a +13 you have a 90% chance to get the DC15, a 65% chance to get DC20 and a 30% chance to hit DC 25. DC 25 is as high as they go, so you're regularly, at 1st level, attaining at least the DC15 and more often than not the DC20 effect.( Note one fix for this might be to have the pplayers declare the DC they want to achieve before rolling and making it so that if they don't achieve that specific DC the power has no effect. But per RAW, unless I missed it the powers don't work this way.)

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I've been playing Saga since a week after it came out - every other week for campaign play, more often for concept playtesting during the week.

PLUSSES

Character creation has gone at least as fast as in D&D, despite the players needing the learn the quirks of the new system. Note that that's for low level characters; I've done high level characters as possible antagonists for later in the campaign and they've gone twice as fast or more.

NPC creation is particularly fast; the 'nonheroic' class for mooks and support NPCs is very fast to work with and flexible, and combined with the skill system allows for the '1st or 2nd level Expert with a Craft higher than most near-Epic characters but single digit hp' that D&D is sometimes lamented for lacking.

Gameplay has gone much faster and smoother than in D&D; I'd say we've had approximately 1.5x as many encounters of significant import each session, those encounters have been larger on average, and the players have actually gotten 2x as many turns per encounter because each action takes significantly less time to adjudicate.

The balance between classes is MUCH better than in previous d20 games, especially D&D. No class stands out like a CoDzilla, and the system appears fairly difficult to break. On the flip side, you would have to put a LOT of effort in to make a character who WASN'T at least somewhat useful in an action scene.

Characters start out competent. I HATE the way starting D&D characters are at sub-real-world levels of competence; Saga characters are actually good at what their schtick is supposed to be.

Static defenses as opposed to active saves make things both faster and more consistent. Area effects resolve in about a quarter the time they previously did. Since the active character rolls for everything, it makes it more interesting for PCs to use skills and 'spells' on their opponents - and allows those who have Force Points to apply them...

Moving around in a fight is both practical and desirable. Between the Running Attack and Acrobatic Strike feats and the ease of withdrawing and charging, characters almost never stand still unless they're carefully lining up a shot or locked in a duel, and both of those options are mechanically supported as well.

The per-encounter balancing (not explicitly, but effectively) of most abilities makes it much easier to design fun and challenging encounters.

Spending Force Points to convert a lethal blow into one that knocks a character unconscious has caused the players to get much more attached to their characters than they would have in a D&D game.

Defense scaling, Force Points and various, often non-numerical, bonuses take the place of the usual assortment of magic items. Certainly this fits better with the types of fantasy I'm interested in (sword and sorcery and JRPG), where a character is likely to have one or two signature items, if indeed any at all.

MINUSES

The class skill lists pretty much force you to multiclass for many character types, and the system penalizes you fairly heavily for not starting in a 'skilled' class.

The way the Use the Force skill scales vs. defenses means that 'magic' is only really useful against mooks as you get to higher levels. This is appropriate to the setting, in which the Force demolishes the likes of stormtroopers and battle droids but Darth Vader and the Emperor have to be lightsabered, but would probably have to be adjusted for fantasy rules.

Armor is PROBABLY too costly/difficult to use for a typical fantasy setting. It IS really, really good if you invest in it, though, even as high as 20th level. This is a tough call; making armor tough to use and not necessary - but really awesome for those who put the time in to use it well - might actually be better for most fantasy and certainly for a setting based on medieval Europe.

The Grapple rules seem like they aren't 'there' yet. I don't know if they're better or worse than D&D/d20 Modern; they're simpler and allow for a bit more variety of results, but seem much, much weaker and not terribly intuitive.

The rules for droid PCs seem kludgy, at once overly complex and insufficiently flexible. Possibly a Star Wars specific issue, but it does show that as of SWSE's release WotC still had trouble putting together more unusual playable races.

The dichotomy between Force and Destiny points is annoying, at least as it currently stands. Possibly a Star Wars specific issue, but I'm not sure. I wouldn't be surprised to see both Action Points and Destiny Points in 4e. Destiny seems like a good idea, but it also seems underdeveloped compared to similar ideas in non-d20 modern RPGs.

The Dark Side rules are at once not tempting enough and not punitive enough. This is a Star Wars specific issue, however.

The editing was not good, especially in terms of the NPC stat blocks.

OVERALL

SWSE is a massive upgrade to the d20 system, reincorporating many of the innovations developed in other d20 games into a single core. Its certainly not perfect, but its problems are mostly setting-specific and minor to boot.

 

[jollyninja]

To be honest, the things about saga that do not port to DnD style gaming can be attributed to the style of the star wars movies. The Heroes never wore armor but the mooks did, so in the game higher level PC's and villians do not need armor. The force is only supposed to work against the weak willed, ie mooks, not vader and as has been pointed out, it always comes down to a lightsaber duel between skilled force users.

As for the insane talents/skill/feat combos, In Saga, characters start at between 18 and 30 hp plus con mod. These are not the equivalent to 3e first level characters. They start higher power level and end with a similar power level. Low level characters can easily have a large number of options in combat. For example a scoundrel at first level had nearly as many force powers as the jedi due to their feat allocations. The scoundrel just had to use every feat he got to do it and the jedi got it free and chose not to spend any feats on force abilities.

as for the skill example with use force, yes it's possible and a bit of a broken mechanic with that skill specifically but such skill abuses are available in 3.5 as well a rogue with an 18 charisma, maxed ranks in use magic device and two feats can effectively sub as healer and arlillery with a small selection of wands. at level 7 he no longer needs to roll to do so. Granted, it's not the same as being able to dominate all they see at level one but the abuse is there.

 

[Gundark]

Two things I had a problem with in Star Wars saga ed.

1.) I have run into a slight problem with multi-class characters who are not combat-oriented. Their BAB will always be lower than a single classed character of the same level. This isn't a majopr problem, but multiclassing is promoted in SW as the way to make the type of character you want(because you get access to skills and talents you need to customize the character you want).

The BAB thing isn't a Saga issue. This problem is present in 3.5 too

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Skill levels can be made almost insanely high at 1st level. I found this moreeso a problem with human jedi(hopefully it will be different with spell casters in D&D 4e). A 1st level human jedi who gets an 18 in Wis, takes Use the force trained and then takes skill focus for use the force can end up with a skill total of +13. Take force training twice and this gives him 2X(1+Wis mod powers) or 8. This allows a 1st level jedi to take 4 offensive powers, 2 to 3 defensive powers and 1 to 2 healer powers which can be used in every encounter. with 2 to 3 jedi that's quite a bit to handle without resorting to specific circumstances designed to negate his powers and skill levels. An Example...

Quick Noteeople will claim this is a very specific build, but my players(two of which had never played a roleplaying game before) all realized this build was the most effective almost automatically. I like that it's easier to see good combinations in Star Wars but the design of the game should take that into consideration.

It's not actually possible to have the bonus and number of Force Powers you're describing using SWSE's default chargen method. The closest you could get (17 Wis, 16 Cha) would leave you with three 8s and a 10 in a system where every stat is sometimes important for every character. You're going to have at least one Defense that's a 10, possibly two, and pretty much won't be able to fight physically at all, either ranged or melee.

A 1st level human soldier with an 18 Dex, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus and Point Blank Shot, wielding a heavy blaster rifle, can hit this character for 3d10+3 damage with a +7 to hit. An 85% chance to hit, or 80% AT WORST. That 3d10+3 damage comes out to, on average, 19.5 - meaning two hits will kill the caster Jedi and all but a minimal handful of hits will move him down the Condition Track. That seems like an awfully effective build, too, no - despite needing only one good stat, which leaves the others open? And has the added benefit of armor proficiency, which is huge at low levels.

The clone trooper commander you're dissing? He can knock you down the condition track 85% or 90% of the time in one shot (reducing your chance of succeeding with a Force power, incidentally), kill most of the time in two shots. And since he's a commander, he probably has regular clone troopers with him - each one of whom has about a 75% chance of hitting you and doing enough damage to knock you further down the track. Did I mention that all of them almost certainly have a higher Initiative?

EDIT: I do agree about the BAB, however. It's a serious problem, especially because of the encouragement to multiclass.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

The BAB thing isn't a Saga issue. This problem is present in 3.5 too

Sort of.

Saga's defenses scale faster than D&D 3.5's, however, and there are far fewer non-BAB-related penalties for multiclassing, which makes it more attractive at first blush.

 

[Christian]

Two things I had a problem with in Star Wars saga ed.
A 1st level human jedi who gets an 18 in Wis, takes Use the force trained and then takes skill focus for use the force can end up with a skill total of +13. Take force training twice and this gives him 2X(1+Wis mod powers) or 8.

1. Use the Force is a Charisma-based skill. You can either get a lot of force powers or the high bonus, but not both, assuming typical point-buy for stats. MAD, baby! 16 in both Wis and Cha is about the most you can hope for, and that assumes you're sacrificing all of your other stats for those two. You'll be a great Force-user, but not much good at anything else, like combat and general skill use.

2. How did your 1st-level Jedi get three feats? One normal, one bonus for human = two. He doesn't get a Jedi bonus feat until second-level. Typical choices for human Jedi are Force Training and Skill Focus: Use the Force, or two sets of Force Training. (Or, like my son's character, Force Training and Force Boon, for extra Force points. Probably not a good long-term choice, but pretty strong at first level.) But, again, you have to pick--lots of powers, or overwhelming skill with a few powers.

I haven't played much, but it seems fairly balanced & fun so far. I think a lot of observers have it right--much of this won't be able to be effectively ported directly to D&D. But I think that the general design methodology, and the ideas behind many of the changes, could translate into improvements in D&D 4th Edition. It all depends on the details of the development and implementation, which obviously remain to be seen.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't understand why so many people are implying that nearly everything that is in SW SAGA is automatically good for 4e :\ But there are people who basically take it for granted that "if they are using it in SAGA, then it certainly works".

Who is currently playing SAGA? How long have you played it? It doesn't seem to me it's been out for long enough.

So let us know how good that ruleset is, and why do you think it's so superior to 3ed. Convince us that it's closer to perfection than any previous ruleset.

If there is any mechanical problem with SAGA, let us know so that we'll check whether 4e changes it already or not.

And possibly also point out why do you think that some SAGA rules does or does not port well to D&D.

I haven't played SAGA, but I have played d20 Modern. A lot of SAGA things, like non-magic item/equipment based Defenses have already been used in Modern, and they work!

Other things, like simplifying skills, are a house rule I immediately snapped up and used for Modern. There's a bit of a hole in that set of rules, in that it's too difficult to take skills that aren't class skills (or, for that matter, learning new class skills is fiendishly difficult) but it makes NPC creation a synch. It's certainly a cool GM tool.

I like the removal/reduction of multiple attacks. I didn't really like the Two-Weapon Fighting rules or the "make two attacks at -5 rules" but the base rules reduce the number of dice rolls and level-based bonuses to damage rock. Maybe the bonus should be based on BAB and not strictly character level but that's a minor issue ... IMO.

As for talents, I found that Modern sometimes overused ability scores for talents. For instance, the Inspiration talent requires a Charisma check and the duration is also based on Charisma. I didn't like the latter aspect; a Charisma 12 character is already going to be worse at it than a Charisma 16 character, and now they're being punished by having their ability last only one round! That makes designing a character like a sergeant very difficult.

I'm a bit worried about "roll to set DC rather than roll saves" - for Star Wars, it works fine for things like autofire and grenades, but I fear how overpowered that would be with Mind Blast. (I've already tried that before with Mind Blast. A spell or effect that "nerfs" multiple characters get overpowered if you roll a 20 on the attack.)

 

[Imaro]

It's not actually possible to have the bonus and number of Force Powers you're describing using SWSE's default chargen method. The closest you could get (17 Wis, 16 Cha) would leave you with three 8s and a 10 in a system where every stat is sometimes important for every character. You're going to have at least one Defense that's a 10, possibly two, and pretty much won't be able to fight physically at all, either ranged or melee.

What are you talking about? Default is roll 4 drop lowest, arrange as desired(pg. 17). Am I missing someting or is it impossible to roll an 18 with this method?

A 1st level human soldier with an 18 Dex, Weapon Specialization, Weapon Focus and Point Blank Shot, wielding a heavy blaster rifle, can hit this character for 3d10+3 damage with a +7 to hit. An 85% chance to hit, or 80% AT WORST. That 3d10+3 damage comes out to, on average, 19.5 - meaning two hits will kill the caster Jedi and all but a minimal handful of hits will move him down the Condition Track. That seems like an awfully effective build, too, no - despite needing only one good stat, which leaves the others open? And has the added benefit of armor proficiency, which is huge at low levels.

Remeber when I talked about those defense powers...two words, Negate Energy. So if the jedi rolls a 6 or higher on a d20...no damage, otherwise half.

The clone trooper commander you're dissing? He can knock you down the condition track 85% or 90% of the time in one shot (reducing your chance of succeeding with a Force power, incidentally), kill most of the time in two shots. And since he's a commander, he probably has regular clone troopers with him - each one of whom has about a 75% chance of hitting you and doing enough damage to knock you further down the track. Did I mention that all of them almost certainly have a higher Initiative?

You realize your arguing ths against a single Jedi of level one against a CL5 opponent +minions right? Now let's give him his minions and add another three jedi to the party so it equals out(Force Slam).

EDIT: I do agree about the BAB, however. It's a serious problem, especially because of the encouragement to multiclass.[/QUOTE]

 

[Imaro]

1. Use the Force is a Charisma-based skill. You can either get a lot of force powers or the high bonus, but not both, assuming typical point-buy for stats. MAD, baby! 16 in both Wis and Cha is about the most you can hope for, and that assumes you're sacrificing all of your other stats for those two. You'll be a great Force-user, but not much good at anything else, like combat and general skill use.

I wasn't assuming point-buy since it's not default.

2. How did your 1st-level Jedi get three feats? One normal, one bonus for human = two. He doesn't get a Jedi bonus feat until second-level. Typical choices for human Jedi are Force Training and Skill Focus: Use the Force, or two sets of Force Training. (Or, like my son's character, Force Training and Force Boon, for extra Force points. Probably not a good long-term choice, but pretty strong at first level.) But, again, you have to pick--lots of powers, or overwhelming skill with a few powers.

You are right here I miscalculated the number of force powers, but it doesn't take that many to annihilate the CL5 clone trooper.

I haven't played much, but it seems fairly balanced & fun so far. I think a lot of observers have it right--much of this won't be able to be effectively ported directly to D&D. But I think that the general design methodology, and the ideas behind many of the changes, could translate into improvements in D&D 4th Edition. It all depends on the details of the development and implementation, which obviously remain to be seen.

Yeah, I really do think the CL system(as per the book) is off. A CL1 stormtrooper is in no way a match for even one player character(especially a jedi). It emulates Star Wars very well, I'm just not so sure about D&D.