How many are playing SAGA?

[MoogleEmpMog]

Fair enough - I can see it, even though I don't agree with it. I just don't think there's going to be a gain of new players through evening out the power levels in that fashion. And what you mention is probably exactly what I'm going to wind up doing - choosing other systems when we don't want something as heroically inclined as 4E is shaping out to be.

A gain OF new players? Possibly, even probably, not. A gain FOR new players? I'm pretty confident on that one. In my experience, new players generally come into fantasy RPGs expecting to play fantasy heroes - be those heroes Aragorn and Legolas, Conan and Fafhrd or Cloud and Auron - and are shocked to discover that their characters aren't even in the same range as heroic characters. Those who cut their teeth on MMORPGs may have a different perspective, I'll concede; MMORPGs pretty much adopted D&D's 'suck until you grind for XP' model whole-hog.

I guess my problem is that I can't think of any fantasy sources other than D&D and electronic games directly derived from it that have characters as LAME as 1st level D&D characters. The regular soldier characters in the Black Company or Suikoden come pretty close, but certainly the main characters are at low- to mid-heroic levels of EFFECTIVENESS in both, and personal power in the latter. I suppose the hobbits in LotR at least start out with 1st level D&D incompetence, although that would probably be better modeled using something like Cinematic Unisystem, with the hobbits having huge stockpiles of Drama Points to compensate for their relative weakness.

To me, the 'choose other systems' option is the ideal one. A system focused on a particular power level, like Black Company or WHFR or RuneQuest or Silhouette Core, invariably covers it with more depth than one providing a particular power level for what by default would be a few sessions. Admittedly, though, I have a great deal of fondness for more granularity in character advancement.

...then again, if it shapes out to be TOO heroically inclined, I'll just advocate Mutants and Masterminds for my group, for a system that does it the best.

Mutants and Masterminds is, indeed, concentrated awesome.

Would it make things more palatable to the GM if skill focus was given a pre-req of level 6 or so?

A 1st level jedi with a Cha of 14 and trained in UtF would start with +7 instead of +12. That's still a tad better than the D&D style skill points, in which case it would be +6.

At level 6, the jedi would be +10 in UtF, or +15 if he decided to focus. Using D&D skill points, it would be +11, assuming he maxed out.

Has anyone tried this already?

I personally would hate this change, because the fact that SWSE characters can be very competent in a skill from 1st level is a huge plus for me, and I haven't seen any in-play evidence that effective Jedi pwn effective soldiers at 1st level or above against the assumed opposition.

Keep in mind, though, that I'm not advocating a direct port of the Force for D&D 4e; I've tried that already. I expect magic won't be skill-based in 4e, and for all other skills the SWSE style is pure, undiluted gravy to me.

 

[RFisher]

You know, the Force Slam thing reminds me a lot of the arguments over Sleep in classic D&D.

It's OK for the PCs to completely dominate encounters. Even when the CR says it should be more challenging. (CR shouldn't be considered a guarantee.) Especially when the encounter is the type the PCs have been built to dominate.

But we'll see how I feel after the Saga campaign. (^_^)

Besides, groups are different. I can come up with reasons for why something doesn't seem to be a problem in my group ad naseum that don't apply to your group. In the end, if something isn't working for your group, you just have to fix it, even if it doesn't seem to cause problems for every other group on the planet.

if anything, those are the situations where they heroically press on against all odds (i.e. take a second wind).

Reminds me of the "reverse death spiral" idea: To properly emulate literature (especially pulp literature) taking damage should give them bonuses instead of penalties. (^_^)