How many are playing SAGA?

[Votan]

What? did you even look at the breakdown I gave earlier? The soldier will succeed in his actual attks way less than the jedi and do less damage on average to less foes. What does armor have to do with this? I'm not trying to be snarky but I'm not understanding how armor is more powerful than the force's premier area attack at low levels...please explain.

If the Jedi go first then, yes, this doesn't matter so much. But if they are focused on Use the Force they are probably not ideally suited to defense. In this sense, they are like D&D wizards -- they can hit very hard but they lack staying power.

If the enemy goes first (not hard to have happen) then the Jedi will take a beating. If they roll badly with force slam then they will end up being dropped with blaster fire.

Like many focused tricks (a lot of characters focus on a single attack pattern), enemies that are vulnerable to it will be shredded. A group of armored soldiers with blasters will do the same thing -- it will take twice as long but the soldiers have the resilience to last twice as a long.

Now try the same party against 5 clone snipers -- spread out, under cover and firing from surprise. A team of soldiers will be hard to drop. A team of Jedi will be hurt badly.

This encounters doesn't have to be based on meta-gaming. If the clone troopers defeated the first couple of times communicate or if they have any idea of what Jedi can do (both plausible) then the opposition will likely adapt their tactics. You fight a tank differently than a squad of marines.

 

[Imaro]

I looked at your breakdown, but I've also played the game.

My experience is that Jedi are comparative glass cannons, who left to their own devices cannot kill or disable enough mooks to withstand the return fire (assuming they win initiative, which is far from certain when they're essentially locked into Use the Force and have only 1-2 more Trained skills) because they don't have armor.

Despite starting with 30 hp, the Jedi IMC have spent more FP to survive enemy attacks than they have to recover Force powers, especially at low levels. The Jedi also spent almost every battle at least -1 down the condition track, usually worse. The soldiers almost never took damage at low levels except from area attacks like grenades and autofire.

The soldier's offense gets better with levels, as does the Jedi's defense, so they end up being more 'samey,' albeit with different fighting styles, around 6th level.

Well my experiences were different. Most of my jedi also had either Negate Energy, or Vital Transfer, which can either eliminate all damage from an attack or heal another. All could deflect with their lightsabers, which works on auto-fire and again pits a UTF check against an attack. I'm sorry but a combat focused jedi will own the soldier at lower levels. Better ranged attack, high bonuses(do to UTF) on attacks and defenses, same hp's and BAB. The only answer to jedi seems continuously lob grenades at them.

So he ambushes two mooks and kills them, and nearly loses to another heroic character but survives due to a lucky break? Sounds about right for SWSE (where the mooks are mook-able, Stealth is a class skill for Soldiers and Scouts, and luck is somewhat player controlled) and far better than D&D.

Show me a D&D 1st level Barbarian (or Fighter)with a decent chance of surprising his opponent at all, much less beating two 1st level Warriors and a fellow 1st level Barbarian.

Actually he didn't surprise them like that. In D&D terms it was more like he waited out of their visibility range at night, while they ambushed another warrior and Vlana then delayed his action to get the highest initiative.

First Round: Fafhrd makes a charge attack on skis to strike down the first warrior who is flat-footed and has no melee weapon, only a bow drawn. Hringol is in battle with another opponent at this point and the second warrior is further down the slope unlacing his skis.

2nd round: Fafhrd makes a second charge attack (continuing down the slope), covering the remaining distance on his skis and slays the second warrior who is prone and still unlacing his skis.

3rd round: Fafhrd finishes the end of his descent with an attack on Hringrol, who is alerted to his approach and dodges aside. Fafhrd still has the skis on and thus can not defend himself well. They go back and forth(no real solid blow scored) and Fafhrd(fails a balance check on the skis) ends up falling prone.

4th round: Vlana throws a knife that takes Hringrol in the eye(an aid another action). Fafhrd makes a desperate lunge and catches the surprised Hringrol in the stomach, slaying him.


No stealth checks just common sense, tactics and a litlle luck. This is definitely something a first level D&D character could pull off.

Conan, on the other hand, climbs a legendary tower and solos on a wizard's guardian giant spider in his chronologically earliest adventure, "The Tower of the Elephant." He's about 18, and is described as already being a seasoned warrior and thief at that point in his life. In D&D terms, he's almost certainly 4th or 5th level - whereas in SWSE, he is passable at 1st or 2nd level.

Not a big Conan fan so I can't really comment on this story. Of course Conan isn't the be all and end all of Swords and Sorcery fantasy.

 

[Henry]

Can you honestly see either Fafhrd or Conan EVER sucking like a 1st level D&D character, or even close to it? Conan in particular would have crushed such a pathetic weakling by the time he was 12 or 13, and I daresay Fafhrd wouldn't be more than a year behind, if that.

On the other hand, Conan AND the Mouser found themselves both broke and on the losing end of a problem many, many times. They did run into things that could kill them if they weren't careful, but the trick is they WERE careful, and for purposes of plot always did the right thing that kept them coming out on top - or at least, living another day.

A better example is something like the Black Company series - that's a bit on the VERY low end, because sometimes the characters didn't survive even a couple of chapters! Not quite that low-brow and deadly, but the thing that SWSE can't emulate (and I'm trying now, to no success!) is more gritty space fantasy, because the characters can recover so fast they can get out of trouble very easily. I like many of Saga Edition's rules, but the combination of them means that characters are VERY capable at low level, and there's no way to emulate the scrabbling at beginning careers that Both D&D and Star Wars d20 was capable of.

The soldiers almost never took damage at low levels except from area attacks like grenades and autofire.

The armor that a first level soldier is wearing is only like +3 or so to reflex defense - and from personal experience doesn't make a bit of difference. I've seen a level 2 Soldier pinned down by two droidekas firing at him behind cover - at which point two level 2 human jedi Surge into the room, force slam the Droidekas (those things Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon ran from), force-grip one to the point of breaking (used a force point), and the other was chopped up as he got off the floor with a lightsaber, and hit with an ion grenade from another PC, ending the fight. The remaining Droideka got two shots, rolled low, and missed with both, and that was all she wrote.

Jedi made the soldier look like a chump at that low level. Now, at high level, I can see it would have evened out. But at low levels, Jedi are using the UTF skill at the equivalent of a 5th or 6th level D&D power.

Conan, on the other hand, climbs a legendary tower and solos on a wizard's guardian giant spider in his chronologically earliest adventure, "The Tower of the Elephant." He's about 18, and is described as already being a seasoned warrior and thief at that point in his life. In D&D terms, he's almost certainly 4th or 5th level - whereas in SWSE, he is passable at 1st or 2nd level.

Given that Conan's earliest stories started him out at like 15 or 16, I could see him being 4th level at age 18. However, I may be blanking, but I could have sworn he killed the spider but the poison almost did him in, right? Plus, he started with a compatriot, but the guy died in mid-story.

I think all these examples are diluting the biggest concern for if D&D goes too much in the SWSE route -- the loss of granularity in the power of low levels, meaning that those who want such will have to go to another d20 or other system to get it. I'm liking more of what I'm seeing out of the previews, but this one concern is one that does go in my "dislike" column.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

On the other hand, Conan AND the Mouser found themselves both broke and on the losing end of a problem many, many times. They did run into things that could kill them if they weren't careful, but the trick is they WERE careful, and for purposes of plot always did the right thing that kept them coming out on top - or at least, living another day.

Well, sure. Nothing in the SWSE rules makes it any harder for the characters to LOSE. In fact, it makes it a lot EASIER for them to lose without being TPK'd, because they can face overwhelming power that is almost certain to drop one or more to 0 hp without the risk of truly killing off the party, and because, as they start at near full strength, they're far more likely to face encounters that are equal or greater in strength.

On those occasions that S&S heroes face more than they can handle, it's usually not because they're tired or worn down; if anything, those are the situations where they heroically press on against all odds (i.e. take a second wind). No, it's when they face things too bizarre or powerful for them to confront with wits and steel, regardless of their current condition.

A better example is something like the Black Company series - that's a bit on the VERY low end, because sometimes the characters didn't survive even a couple of chapters! Not quite that low-brow and deadly, but the thing that SWSE can't emulate (and I'm trying now, to no success!) is more gritty space fantasy, because the characters can recover so fast they can get out of trouble very easily. I like many of Saga Edition's rules, but the combination of them means that characters are VERY capable at low level, and there's no way to emulate the scrabbling at beginning careers that Both D&D and Star Wars d20 was capable of.

IMO, the Black Company is best represented by taking a page from OD&D and early AD&D. The actual PCs are people like Croaker, One-Eye and Goblin, the Captain and the Lieutenant, and (depowered) Lady - and all of them survive through multiple books against major odds, often less because of personal power (i.e. levels) and more because of a combination of cleverness, guts, and luck (that last being a metagame mechanic in gaming terms). The types that died after one or two chapters were henchmen and hirelings - good guy mooks, in other words.

The armor that a first level soldier is wearing is only like +3 or so to reflex defense - and from personal experience doesn't make a bit of difference. I've seen a level 2 Soldier pinned down by two droidekas firing at him behind cover - at which point two level 2 human jedi Surge into the room, force slam the Droidekas (those things Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon ran from), force-grip one to the point of breaking (used a force point), and the other was chopped up as he got off the floor with a lightsaber, and hit with an ion grenade from another PC, ending the fight. The remaining Droideka got two shots, rolled low, and missed with both, and that was all she wrote.

Reh? My first-level soldiers were rocking Armored Flight Suits, which give a +6 to Ref and +2 to Fort, and are also airtight in space. Otherwise known as 'awesome in a can.'

Jedi made the soldier look like a chump at that low level. Now, at high level, I can see it would have evened out. But at low levels, Jedi are using the UTF skill at the equivalent of a 5th or 6th level D&D power.

If you say so.

My experience was, again, just the opposite. The jedi lost initiative and a group of clone troopers gunned him down to a handful of hp and -2 on the condition track when he deflected a mighty one out of four shots. I've run the math on deflect. With a reasonable build, it's better against only the first shot, at most slightly better against the second, and worse against the rest; my SWSE experience is that it's usually going to be 2 out of 4-12 shots.

Given that Conan's earliest stories started him out at like 15 or 16, I could see him being 4th level at age 18. However, I may be blanking, but I could have sworn he killed the spider but the poison almost did him in, right? Plus, he started with a compatriot, but the guy died in mid-story.

Conan did barely survive the fight with the spider, but it didn't actually poison him. His companion was killed by it, though.

I think all these examples are diluting the biggest concern for if D&D goes too much in the SWSE route -- the loss of granularity in the power of low levels, meaning that those who want such will have to go to another d20 or other system to get it. I'm liking more of what I'm seeing out of the previews, but this one concern is one that does go in my "dislike" column.

As I've said elsewhere, the huge gain in fun and playability for new players vastly outweighs the minor negative of not being able to play WHFR starting characters for one or two levels before I get my sword and sorcery heroes and (unfortunately) eventual fantasy supers. I hardly think experienced gamers, who are almost certainly the only ones who would have any knowledge of or interest in another way to play, are lacking in system choice for gritty play - including ones like, aptly enough, the Black Company d20, which provide gritty play all the way through character progression.

 

[The_Gneech]

I've only run one session of SWSE, actually, but in that session the Soldier With a Stun Grenade was far and away the most effective combatant.

Once my S&S conversion finally gets on the table (hopefully weekend after this one), I'll have more to say about the overall system, if not Star Wars specifically.

-The Gneech

 

[Imaro]

On those occasions that S&S heroes face more than they can handle, it's usually not because they're tired or worn down; if anything, those are the situations where they heroically press on against all odds (i.e. take a second wind). No, it's when they face things too bizarre or powerful for them to confront with wits and steel, regardless of their current condition.

Tell that to Elric, Corum or Mouser(in his first story)

Reh? My first-level soldiers were rocking Armored Flight Suits, which give a +6 to Ref and +2 to Fort, and are also airtight in space. Otherwise known as 'awesome in a can.'

How did 1st level soldiers afford this? It's $4000 credits a soldier only starts with a maximum of $3000(3d4x250).

If you say so.

My experience was, again, just the opposite. The jedi lost initiative and a group of clone troopers gunned him down to a handful of hp and -2 on the condition track when he deflected a mighty one out of four shots. I've run the math on deflect. With a reasonable build, it's better against only the first shot, at most slightly better against the second, and worse against the rest; my SWSE experience is that it's usually going to be 2 out of 4-12 shots.

With a UTF skill of +12(and this isn''t even the optimal build) the Jedi far surpasses the clone troopers +5 to hit. First shot he's at a +12 that's a +35% chance to deflect...2nd shot is at +10% chance to deflect...3rd is at -15% chance to deflect and 4th at -40% chance to deflect... Let's not forget Negate Energy as well.

You gave the soldiers armor they should have never had at first level and wondered why they became masters of resisting damage. The funny thing is your soldier looses the overpowered armor and it will go a totally different way.

As I've said elsewhere, the huge gain in fun and playability for new players vastly outweighs the minor negative of not being able to play WHFR starting characters for one or two levels before I get my sword and sorcery heroes and (unfortunately) eventual fantasy supers. I hardly think experienced gamers, who are almost certainly the only ones who would have any knowledge of or interest in another way to play, are lacking in system choice for gritty play - including ones like, aptly enough, the Black Company d20, which provide gritty play all the way through character progression.

Uhm...but you could do this in 3.5 by starting at a higher level and fighting weaker opponents. I think it's about D&D being versatile...without that there are better rpg's for S&S based games, high fantasy games, fantasy superheroes and gritty games. D&D was always the game I could get any of those fixes with depending on the level we started at.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Tell that to Elric, Corum or Mouser(in his first story)

Considering that Moorcock's protagonists were deliberate inversions of S&S tropes when they came out, I don't really think it's fair to include them.

I don't recall the Mouser's first appearance (I'm much more of a Howard fan); what happened to him in that story?

How did 1st level soldiers afford this? It's $4000 credits a soldier only starts with a maximum of $3000(3d4x250).

By having a noble in the party who shared some wealth (and took the talent that gives extra credits) so that his 'retinue' could be properly equipped?

Certainly that's how it went down IMC.

With a UTF skill of +12(and this isn''t even the optimal build) the Jedi far surpasses the clone troopers +5 to hit. First shot he's at a +12 that's a +35% chance to deflect...2nd shot is at +10% chance to deflect...3rd is at -15% chance to deflect and 4th at -40% chance to deflect... Let's not forget Negate Energy as well.

Yep, first two shots. At the cost of a feat, a talent, a trained skill and at least 6 point buy points.

The soldiers were at +8 with their Dex and armor, and would be at +6 even with the cheaper armor they could get without a noble buddy. At the cost of only 6 point buy points. So they were behind on only one shot, and would have been behind against two.

I'll take that any day in the mook-friendly Saga rules.

You gave the soldiers armor they should have never had at first level and wondered why they became masters of resisting damage. The funny thing is your soldier looses the overpowered armor and it will go a totally different way.

Except see above, about both the armor being 'overpowered' and the amount of difference it made. :nonexistentrolleyessmiley:

Uhm...but you could do this in 3.5 by starting at a higher level and fighting weaker opponents. I think it's about D&D being versatile...without that there are better rpg's for S&S based games, high fantasy games, fantasy superheroes and gritty games. D&D was always the game I could get any of those fixes with depending on the level we started at.

Yes - by starting at a higher level.

Which a NEW PLAYER would never, ever intuit.

But then, I've never understood the idea of playing D&D for two to three levels, the only ones at which it is even remotely gritty, when there are a wealth of well-designed games that allow for meaningful mechanical advancement within the gritty range. WHFR and Runequest, for example, are both widely available, perfectly good games that allow exactly that. Black Company and Game of Thrones d20 do, too, just of the top of my head.

 

[drothgery]

Having run a SWSE game from level 2 to 4 over the course of 5 sessions (basically leveling every other week), here's a few scattered comments...

1 - My biggest problem has really been storytelling; some of this is lack of experience as a tabletop GM, but some of it's inherrent to any universe that uses master/apprentice setup for training the superheroes of the universe. So about half of what I've worked on is plausible ways to keep the Padawan's master from solving problems for the PCs (since she's, you know, quite a bit higher level than he is). I had the same issue in d20 Wheel of Time PBP game I ran for a long time; it was completely against the conventions of Jordan's world to have Accepted on their own without an Aes Sedai, so the challenge was to keep one close enough at hand that it made sense, but far enough away that she wasn't a DMPC.

2 - My PCs are a Cerean Padawan (counselor-type Jedi), a human hunter (force-sensitive scout), and a Wookie Soldier. Generally the soldier (either with a bowcaster or a vibro-ax) or the scout (with Force Slam) have been the combat monkeys; the Jedi's been more effective with Force powers than with his lightsaber (probably due to low strength).

3 - The bad guys I've been using have typically been KotOR-era Mandalorian mercenaries (I used clone troopers for them initially, then tweaked them a bit for a more 'Mandalorian' style, though I still used Stormtrooper armor stats), war droids, and members of a techie dark side cult. I've been ratcheting up how 'smart' the bad guys play; the first band they ran into pretty much just moved and shot, while the last band used cover, autofire, and grenades heavily.

4 - Single enemies are not a good idea. One dark Jedi vs. 3 PCs three levels lower than he was + one low initiative roll = 3-round kill.

5 - Skill Focus (UtF) means that it's pretty hard for anything other than the BBEG in a low-level game to resist a force power; in some cases I've gotten around this with immunities. I've given bad guys an anti-mind trick gadget, and used a lot of droids mostly because they can't be mind tricked.

 

[Henry]

As I've said elsewhere, the huge gain in fun and playability for new players vastly outweighs the minor negative of not being able to play WHFR starting characters for one or two levels before I get my sword and sorcery heroes and (unfortunately) eventual fantasy supers. I hardly think experienced gamers, who are almost certainly the only ones who would have any knowledge of or interest in another way to play, are lacking in system choice for gritty play - including ones like, aptly enough, the Black Company d20, which provide gritty play all the way through character progression.

Fair enough - I can see it, even though I don't agree with it. I just don't think there's going to be a gain of new players through evening out the power levels in that fashion. And what you mention is probably exactly what I'm going to wind up doing - choosing other systems when we don't want something as heroically inclined as 4E is shaping out to be.


...then again, if it shapes out to be TOO heroically inclined, I'll just advocate Mutants and Masterminds for my group, for a system that does it the best.

 

[Droogie]

The Skill Issue

Would it make things more palatable to the GM if skill focus was given a pre-req of level 6 or so?

A 1st level jedi with a Cha of 14 and trained in UtF would start with +7 instead of +12. That's still a tad better than the D&D style skill points, in which case it would be +6.

At level 6, the jedi would be +10 in UtF, or +15 if he decided to focus. Using D&D skill points, it would be +11, assuming he maxed out.

Has anyone tried this already?