How many are playing SAGA?

[Henry]

This creates an imbalance because he will never at first level have an attk bonus equal to a jedi's UTF skil, BAB doesn't scale like skills.

That is one thing that has come to a lot of people's attention - skills that start off at +12 to +14 (there's very little reason for a Jedi NOT to take Skill Focus (UTF)) to be used effectively as an attack roll are rather powerful when everyone else only has a +2 to +5 bonus in the same thing. Now, what is constantly repeated is, "the problem goes away at higher levels" - and it does - but it's still a problem at least from levels 1 to 3, where we've been playing so far. I've been running with it, and just adding mounds of minions for the Jedi in my group, but it also means they're beating the tar out of creatures FAR above what the book says their Challenge Levels should be handling. Like most every RPG I've ever done, I divorced the XP gain from the levelling, so they level when it's plot-appropriate, but another GM not doing that is going to find a party with half of its members Jedi levelling VERY quickly to about 5th or 6th level, I would imagine.

 

[Baby Samurai]

...and the concern is that those who want "pedestrian muggers" are left out in the cold completely. To me, it's a valid concern, too: That's where the game had its roots, in low-brow adventuring more like Fafhrd and Conan,

I'm sure you can still have a kick down the door vodka and chicken wings session with 4th Ed just as much as any previous edition.

 

[Imaro]

That is one thing that has come to a lot of people's attention - skills that start off at +12 to +14 (there's very little reason for a Jedi NOT to take Skill Focus (UTF)) to be used effectively as an attack roll are rather powerful when everyone else only has a +2 to +5 bonus in the same thing. Now, what is constantly repeated is, "the problem goes away at higher levels" - and it does - but it's still a problem at least from levels 1 to 3, where we've been playing so far. I've been running with it, and just adding mounds of minions for the Jedi in my group, but it also means they're beating the tar out of creatures FAR above what the book says their Challenge Levels should be handling. Like most every RPG I've ever done, I divorced the XP gain from the levelling, so they level when it's plot-appropriate, but another GM not doing that is going to find a party with half of its members Jedi levelling VERY quickly to about 5th or 6th level, I would imagine.

Hey Henry, my biggest concern with this is spellcasters in D&D now getting per-day and at-will abilities. I really don't want spellcasters to become the "jedi" of D&D...especially the cleric who can both fight and cast spells. It basically causes the so called problem that Wizards now face( at low levels they are forced to play a sideline role) and flips it so that normal fighters play sideline until it evens out at higher levels (I'm especially wary of this with the increased hp's and static defenses that are allegedly being used in 4th ed.). That's not an improvement IMHO, it's just reversing the problem, and could create a problem similar to the "Druid owning all" but now with all spellcasters outclassing the fighters.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

...and the concern is that those who want "pedestrian muggers" are left out in the cold completely. To me, it's a valid concern, too: That's where the game had its roots, in low-brow adventuring more like Fafhrd and Conan, than in Dragonlance and Lord of the Rings. Heck, even taking more modern tropes, if you can play Bleach, but not Cowboy Bebop, then there's a concern that it can't accomodate everyone like it used to, without some work.

Can you honestly see either Fafhrd or Conan EVER sucking like a 1st level D&D character, or even close to it? Conan in particular would have crushed such a pathetic weakling by the time he was 12 or 13, and I daresay Fafhrd wouldn't be more than a year behind, if that.

I personally think the Saga rules do a MUCH better job with Sword and Sorcery than any version of D&D. The increases in lethality vs. mooks, toughness for starting characters, combat mobility, ability to shake off wounds in a heroic fashion and metagame/luck mechanics all contribute to the Sword and Sorcery style.

 

[Imaro]

I'm sure you can still have a kick down the door vodka and chicken wings session with 4th Ed just as much as any previous edition.

I don't think that's exactly what he's talking about. I think what he means is right now if you want to play a mid power game you can start at 3rd level or 4th level...and there are monsters and challenges designed in the books for this...If the default becomes third level it becomes a hassle to modify everything to scale back down to a gritier level.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Hey Henry, my biggest concern with this is spellcasters in D&D now getting per-day and at-will abilities. I really don't want spellcasters to become the "jedi" of D&D...especially the cleric who can both fight and cast spells. It basically causes the so called problem that Wizards now face( at low levels they are forced to play a sideline role) and flips it so that normal fighters play sideline until it evens out at higher levels (I'm especially wary of this with the increased hp's and static defenses that are allegedly being used in 4th ed.). That's not an improvement IMHO, it's just reversing the problem, and could create a problem similar to the "Druid owning all" but now with all spellcasters outclassing the fighters.

The correct solution, and the one SWSE takes, is to make fighters not suck.

For example, in SWSE, my experience from 1st level on is that Soldiers are as good as Jedi in many circumstances and better in most. The Jedi are either completely dependent on Force abilities and thus easy to cripple and/or 2hko, or they are melee-focused and lacking both skills and armor.

Armor, at low levels, is the balancing factor. It's INCREDIBLY powerful for a 1st or 2nd level character, moreso than the Force in combat, IMX.

Now, if you run SWSE with 1-2 enemies like in D&D 3.5, you're right - Force Grip as a stun-lock at 1st level is incredibly powerful. SWSE assumes a typical combat will involve a fairly large number of mooks or environmental threats, however, and as long as you stick to that, the soldier who can drop a mook a turn at long range, or use grenades on groups, is better off than the Jedi who can drop a mook a turn in melee (by which point he's liable to be dead) or use Force powers on groups.

 

[Imaro]

Can you honestly see either Fafhrd or Conan EVER sucking like a 1st level D&D character, or even close to it? Conan in particular would have crushed such a pathetic weakling by the time he was 12 or 13, and I daresay Fafhrd wouldn't be more than a year behind, if that.

I personally think the Saga rules do a MUCH better job with Sword and Sorcery than any version of D&D. The increases in lethality vs. mooks, toughness for starting characters, combat mobility, ability to shake off wounds in a heroic fashion and metagame/luck mechanics all contribute to the Sword and Sorcery style.

Fafhrd in the story "The Snow Women", where I believe he's somewhere between 16 and 18 (around starting age for a D&D adventurer) spends most of his time running from opponents that outnumber him. When he finally does fight the three men at the end, two he kills by surprise and ambush. Their leader, Hringorl, nearly kills him until he recieves aid in the form of a thrown knife from Vlana that pierces Hringorl's eye. This to me is what the early levels of adventurers are like, skill, cleverness and a little luck see you through.

 

[Baby Samurai]

I personally think the Saga rules do a MUCH better job with Sword and Sorcery than any version of D&D.

Well, considering that Star Wars if basically fantasy shrouded in Sci-Fi trappings it's no wonder.

 

[Imaro]

The correct solution, and the one SWSE takes, is to make fighters not suck.

For example, in SWSE, my experience from 1st level on is that Soldiers are as good as Jedi in many circumstances and better in most. The Jedi are either completely dependent on Force abilities and thus easy to cripple and/or 2hko, or they are melee-focused and lacking both skills and armor.

Armor, at low levels, is the balancing factor. It's INCREDIBLY powerful for a 1st or 2nd level character, moreso than the Force in combat, IMX.

Now, if you run SWSE with 1-2 enemies like in D&D 3.5, you're right - Force Grip as a stun-lock at 1st level is incredibly powerful. SWSE assumes a typical combat will involve a fairly large number of mooks or environmental threats, however, and as long as you stick to that, the soldier who can drop a mook a turn at long range, or use grenades on groups, is better off than the Jedi who can drop a mook a turn in melee (by which point he's liable to be dead) or use Force powers on groups.

What? did you even look at the breakdown I gave earlier? The soldier will succeed in his actual attks way less than the jedi and do less damage on average to less foes. What does armor have to do with this? I'm not trying to be snarky but I'm not understanding how armor is more powerful than the force's premier area attack at low levels...please explain.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

What? did you even look at the breakdown I gave earlier? The soldier will succeed in his actual attks way less than the jedi and do less damage on average to less foes. What does armor have to do with this? I'm not trying to be snarky but I'm not understanding how armor is more powerful than the force's premier area attack at low levels...please explain.

I looked at your breakdown, but I've also played the game.

My experience is that Jedi are comparative glass cannons, who left to their own devices cannot kill or disable enough mooks to withstand the return fire (assuming they win initiative, which is far from certain when they're essentially locked into Use the Force and have only 1-2 more Trained skills) because they don't have armor.

Despite starting with 30 hp, the Jedi IMC have spent more FP to survive enemy attacks than they have to recover Force powers, especially at low levels. The Jedi also spent almost every battle at least -1 down the condition track, usually worse. The soldiers almost never took damage at low levels except from area attacks like grenades and autofire.

The soldier's offense gets better with levels, as does the Jedi's defense, so they end up being more 'samey,' albeit with different fighting styles, around 6th level.

Fafhrd in the story "The Snow Women", where I believe he's somewhere between 16 and 18 (around starting age for a D&D adventurer) spends most of his time running from opponents that outnumber him. When he finally does fight the three men at the end, two he kills by surprise and ambush. Their leader, Hringorl, nearly kills him until he recieves aid in the form of a thrown knife from Vlana that pierces Hringorl's eye. This to me is what the early levels of adventurers are like, skill, cleverness and a little luck see you through.

So he ambushes two mooks and kills them, and nearly loses to another heroic character but survives due to a lucky break? Sounds about right for SWSE (where the mooks are mook-able, Stealth is a class skill for Soldiers and Scouts, and luck is somewhat player controlled) and far better than D&D.

Show me a D&D 1st level Barbarian (or Fighter)with a decent chance of surprising his opponent at all, much less beating two 1st level Warriors and a fellow 1st level Barbarian.

Conan, on the other hand, climbs a legendary tower and solos on a wizard's guardian giant spider in his chronologically earliest adventure, "The Tower of the Elephant." He's about 18, and is described as already being a seasoned warrior and thief at that point in his life. In D&D terms, he's almost certainly 4th or 5th level - whereas in SWSE, he is passable at 1st or 2nd level.