How many arrows can one man carry?

[Staffan]

Some polearms (anything with "-guisarme" in the name, i.e. a Voulge-guisarme) have little hooks or the like on the business end. Know what they're for?

Hauling high-and-mighty mounted knights off their steeds and into the mud with the REST of the army. Ergo, anyone using one, proficiently, should get the right to make a "trip" attack on amounted rider ... to haul them off the mount and onto the ground ...

"Because of the guisarme's curved blade, trip attacks can also be made with it. If a character is tripped during his or her trip attempt, the guisarme can be dropped to avoid being tripped."

Already dealt with in the rules. The dismounting thing is a "special effect" of doing a trip on a mounted opponent.

 

[Thanee]

Like what? I'm not poking and prodding. I'm just trying trying to see this from your perspective.

Well... let's see what move-equivalent actions are:

Move your speed
Draw a weapon
Sheathe a weapon
Pick up an item
Stand up
etc.

Something like that.

They require some motion by the character, be it as simple as moving your hand to the sword hilt and drawing it out of the scabbard.

Free actions, OTOH, are usually possible without much motion:

Speak
Drop an item
Drop to the floor
etc.

Retrieving an item from a backpack, which is worn on the back and probably even closed, hardly compares to the free actions and seems a lot likelier to be a move-equivalent action, if it does not include actually searching for the item to be retrieved (which should then be a full-round action or even longer). Therefore I do agree a lot more with the initial DMG rule, than with the errata.

Bye
Thanee

 

[kreynolds]

Free actions, OTOH, are usually possible without much motion:

Speak
Drop an item
Drop to the floor
etc.

But Quick Drawing a weapon, does, in fact, require quite a bit of motion, especially when envisioning a Flamberge or Greatsword strapped to your back. It just so happens that this motion is extraordinarily fast.

Along the same lines is a Quickened Spell. It requires the same amount of motion that a non-quickened spell would require, albeit it is much much faster, a blink of an eye, like Quick Draw.

Retrieving an item from a backpack, which is worn on the back and probably even closed, hardly compares to the free actions and seems a lot likelier to be a move-equivalent action, if it does not include actually searching for the item to be retrieved (which should then be a full-round action or even longer).

When considering a quickened spell, I can't really see how retrieving a specific item from Heward's Handy Haversack shouldn't be a free action. Like a quickened spell and Quick Draw, it is the same amount of motion/movement but much faster.

If at least a modicum of realism is your concern, such as the admittedly strange notion of unbuckling those fancy latches and buckles, lifting the flap and drawing the item, then there are certainly ways to achieve this.

You could, if you wanted, simply rule that while the flap is not latched/buckled, drawing a specific item certainly is a free action. Arguably, this is certainly identical to quick drawing a greatsword from your back. You simply reach over your shoulder and it's there. However, what happens when you turn a bag of holding upside down? Nothing. Nothing spills out, which means that I can leave the flaps open and not worry about anything falling out when I fall down, twist and dodge while in combat, etc. The contents of a bag of holding only spill out when the bag is turned inside out, so, as a player, following the letter of the rules, I could simply say that the flaps are always open. Granted this might not be the best idea, since anyone can now snag the contents out one at a time, but it would solve the problem. However, leaving those flaps open in a rainstorm might suck.

Therefore I do agree a lot more with the initial DMG rule, than with the errata.

It seems to me that you might just be having trouble invisioning certain actions being performed as Free Actions, such as retrieving a specific stored item from Heward's Handy Haversack, quick drawing a greatsword strapped to your back, or quickened spells. If this is indeed the case, you will need to evaluate each situation individualy to see if you can justify the Free Action in your own mind, but it's nearly impossible to apply even a modicum of realism to magic.

But, like I said, in regards to your beef with Heward's Handy Haversack, ruling that it is only a free action if the flaps are already open might be a rule-0 that you would be happy with. Something to consider, anyway.

 

[0-hr]

Hewards Handy Haversack does not necessarily impart quick draw, it just let's you pull out an item as a free action. If that item is a cub, there is no guarantee which end you are going to be holding (if you even happen to grab it by an end).

If that item is a sword, then you are getting a sword (held any which random way) still in it's scabbard (as otherwise it would poke a hole in the HHH). So the sword still takes a move equivalent to prepare it for use.

IMC I let blunt weapons come out properly oriented, but that's just because I'm a Nice Guy(tm). An arrow would have to be in some sort of container that would hold it given the usual amount of jostling. So arrows wrapped in a canvas bundle would be ok. Arrows loose in an open ended quiver would spill all over the inside of the HHH, eventually poke a hole, and cause all of the contents to be lost forever.

Of course, this is just my interpretation. Other people may disagree and we all know "He who posts last is right."

 

[Thanee]

Hmmm... wasn't drawing a weapon as a move-equivalent action (or free action with Quickdraw) limited to weapons specifically prepared to do so (i.e. properly sheathed)?

About the comparison of HHH with Quickdraw and Quicken Spell, both involve a feat and therefore a special talent of the character to do something extremely quick. The HHH does not have such a prerequisite. Of course, it surely is a magic item, which might confer this quality to the wearer, but the free action part seems to be only based on the fact, that there is no searching involved.

Bye
Thanee

 

[kreynolds]

Hewards Handy Haversack does not necessarily impart quick draw, it just let's you pull out an item as a free action. If that item is a cub, there is no guarantee which end you are going to be holding (if you even happen to grab it by an end).

I don't think it's a stretch to say that the item retrieved is done so properly oriented. If you reach into a regular backpack for an unsheated dagger, it's not likely that you would intentionally pull it out full-fisting the sharp blade. Taking the time out to carefully remove an item, so as not to harm yourself or the item, could be a good way for many people to justify to themselves why it is a move-equivalent action to retrieve a stored item. Heward's Handy Haversack simply speeds up this process by doing the work for you, and it also saves you a lot of trouble.

For instance, consider an Eversmoking Bottle (which does not require a command word to open, only to seal) that is drawn from a backpack. If you rule that the move-equivalent action (let's assume it's at the top of the pouch) is not sufficient to retrieve the item in its proper orientation, then there would be a possibility that you accidently grab it by the stopper. What is the percentage chance that you even grab it by the stopper? What is the percentage chance that the stopper comes out, leaving the now smoking bottle in your backpack and a harmless stopper in your hand?

If a DM wants to come up with the random variables that would address proper orientation of retrieved items, and the possible mishaps involved with improperly retrieving an item, that's fine, but it seems needlessly complicated to me.

Other people may disagree and we all know "He who posts last is right."

Nah. I'm always right, unless I say otherwise.

EDIT: Heh. I think I just found a new addition to my sig.

 

[kreynolds]

Hmmm... wasn't drawing a weapon as a move-equivalent action (or free action with Quickdraw) limited to weapons specifically prepared to do so (i.e. properly sheathed)?

I would think so.

About the comparison of HHH with Quickdraw and Quicken Spell, both involve a feat and therefore a special talent of the character to do something extremely quick. The HHH does not have such a prerequisite.

Following this line of thought, a Ring of Jumping shouldn't work either, because it doesn't require any ranks in the Jump skill to create it.

but the free action part seems to be only based on the fact, that there is no searching involved.

Exactly. Again, a type 1 Bag of Holding has double the capacity of Heward's Handy Haversack. Also, retrieving an item from a bag of holding is a move-equivalent action, unless the bag contains more than a normal backpack would, in which case it is a full-round action. With the capacity limitation of Heward's Handy Haversack, this is offset by the fact that any specific item is always at the top, thus, as you said, there is no searching involved. Think about it for a minute; If the item you want is always at the top, then there is need to search for it.

 

[Thanee]

Following this line of thought, a Ring of Jumping shouldn't work either, because it doesn't require any ranks in the Jump skill to create it.

I didn't exactly say, that you would require Quickdraw to infuse the haversack with its magical properties, but anyways, the ring of jumping has a proper prerequisite (jump spell). Now the price is another thing (compared to a ring that simply adds +30 to jump using the skill bonus formula, resulting in 18,000gp), but that is better discussed elsewhere!

Exactly. Again, a type 1 Bag of Holding has double the capacity of Heward's Handy Haversack. Also, retrieving an item from a bag of holding is a move-equivalent action, unless the bag contains more than a normal backpack would, in which case it is a full-round action.

Yep, and this is exactly the point, where I am in disagreement, as I previously wrote. It should always be (at least) a full-round action to retrieve an item from a bag of holding and a move-equivalent action to do so from the one and only magical haversack (of course, it should be quicker, because there is no searching involved, and because of the balance between the cost and capacity limitation of both types of containers).

With the capacity limitation of Heward's Handy Haversack, this is offset by the fact that any specific item is always at the top, thus, as you said, there is no searching involved. Think about it for a minute; If the item you want is always at the top, then there is no need to search for it.

Well, of course not. I'm not argueing that part.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Staffan]

Just curious, how many quivers full of arrows should a fighter be able to carry?

Forty-two.

 

[kreynolds]

Re: Re: How many arrows can one man carry?

Forty-two.

No. It's 41, but don't ask me to quote a page number.