D&D 5E How many players would use a service like this

[Willie the Duck]

Haven't made the case that "gated" and "informed" are different words with different meanings?

I have no idea what you are talking about.

I meant which one is actually accurate in this situation, and whether there is a meaningfully difference in this instance. A two-headed giant beating each other up and saying, 'why can't you admit that you're wrong?' to each other does not an case make. Mannahnin broke the stalemate in the meantime.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Or they've found enough groups where the DM is a jerk or the other players are creeps and they want a curated experience now.

Or maybe someone running a different style of play that is easier to experience than explain? I've certainly heard 'I feel like I'd like to run a sandbox, but I don't know where to begin and I think people will get frustrated and bail if they have to handle the learning curve with me.' more than once or twice.

 

[Lanefan]

Chess and Go only became popular because they were commodified. Either through gambling, selling gaming sets, education, social standing, whatever. It doesn't matter, the point is they were of value to people.

Thing is, something can be of value to people and yet not be commodified. Freeware, for example; or anything created with the specific intent of releasing it into the public domain; or volunteer work. Commodification is a choice; it's just that we tend not to think of it as a choice because it has become so deeply ingrained as the default.

DMing - and playing, for that matter - is something that has largely resisted this push, at least so far.

side note: this almost starts to tie in with the ongoing copyright thread in Geek Talk.

Without that that, they would not have become widely known, and would have been forgotten, along with the thousands of other games that get invented then forgotten.

These days there's also strong pressure from commodification interests to shut down or squash anything that doesn't align with said interests, which doesn't help.

 

[Lanefan]

Or they've found enough groups where the DM is a jerk or the other players are creeps and they want a curated experience now.

That experience could just as easily be curated by a jerk DM and be filled with creepy players, though; the only difference being that now you have to pay to find this out.

 

[Reynard]

Now, for the trifecta. Explain what the difference is to the player in those cases. Answer: none. They're identical.

That's just silly. My players know the difference, because I tell them. I don't know why you are so intent on equating things that aren't alike, especially since it is clear you don't like the things you are equating.

 

[overgeeked]

That's just silly. My players know the difference, because I tell them. I don't know why you are so intent on equating things that aren't alike, especially since it is clear you don't like the things you are equating.

So you don’t handle it like Matt does. Good. Because how Matt handles it, you know the original example I gave, is to not inform the players and just have them roll. So, to the players there’s no difference. They’re left to wonder.

 

[Helldritch]

Chess has been played both for money and pleasure from the start. So did go. Ask Magnus Carlson or Hikaru or the YouTuber Levy and Agamator with millions of subscribers if chess does not pay...

Is it really hard to admit that some DMs are good enough to get paid for it? It is not that hard to believe. I have a friend that does this for a living.

I sure would not charge money for that, even though I was offered to be paid more than once, I always resisted because once you see the game as way to earn money, it is no longer a game for you. And I want my D&D to stay the hobby I love so much.

But I will not throw a stone at someone who gets paid to DM nor will I say that someone doing it for free is getting used by his/her players. The costs of being a DM is higher than players often imagine. I have a high end paying job, but not all my players can say the same. I have three PHB just because of that. Two of them are always in the center of the table to be used by anyone. I know the costs and I can easily imagine that a DM might be tempted to charge a few bucks to pay for the books. Our hobby does not cost that much, but it is still quite expensive if you buy everything that suits your fancy.

So be tolerant of DMs that charge a little something. It might be the only way that they have to play and have access to the books.

 

[Hussar]

Sure. But no “pro DM” is going to become the next Critical Role. At best they’re going to burn themselves out scrambling to run more and more games to make a few extra bucks. This is a gig, at best. Not Critical Role. LOL.

There are considerable distances between, "I'm making a decent living" and "I'm making millions of dollars a year".

Granted, it's unlikely many people are going to be making a living wage out of running games, but, it's certainly not a bad side-hustle.

 

[Mr. Wilson]

If you can make $20 per player per session at 4 hours each with 5 players each game that's $100.00 per session.

I won't lie and say I haven't thought about it. Even 1 game a week paid is a nice income boost.

But beware, you've turned your hobby into a profession with all the good and bad that comes with that change.

 

[Helldritch]

My friend have 6 groups of 6 persons. That is 120$ multiply this by 6 or 720$ free of income taxes... per weeks. He recruits at the university and college. You might be surprised at the Ling waiting list he's got. He never plays on Saturday nights though... (come to think of it, me neither, Saturdays are for my wife).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Thing is, something can be of value to people and yet not be commodified. Freeware, for example;

People generally produce freeware to publicise their skills. Like the "free" stuff on D&D Beyond the people who create it hope to get something in return.

or anything created with the specific intent of releasing it into the public domain; or volunteer work. Commodification is a choice;

No, it is not.

People need food, they need shelter. In order to fulfil that need they need money to pay for it. They cannot earn money if they spend their time giving stuff away. They need to commodify their time in order to make a living.

it's just that we tend not to think of it as a choice because it has become so deeply ingrained as the default.

Well, they could choose to starve, or subsistence farm and make all their own stuff. But that doesn't leave much time for gaming.

DMing - and playing, for that matter - is something that has largely resisted this push, at least so far.

It hasn't "resisted", it's just difficult to commodify in a way that is profitable. Unlike rulebooks, adventures, settings etc, which people where very quick to commodify. No one is getting rich by being a pro-DM, even at the rates outlined in the OP. They are lucky to break even.

 

[Hussar]

I wonder if the spread of online gaming has had an impact here. I imagine Covid has made it much harder for people to find live games, so, a pay game, where you don't have flakey DM's and flakey players, isn't a bad option.

Additionally, let's not forget, that the HUGE growth of D&D in the past five or so years, has made it actually an option to do this. Before, you really couldn't do the paid DM thing because there just wasn't enough players. But now? Now you've got a pretty broad range of players who may have the money to make a paid game their choice.

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

I've never heard of a paid DM here in little Sweden, perhaps it exist. If people want to pay to play or DM for cash, go for it.

But for me one of the best parts of the hobby over the decades has been all the wonderfully weird and odd people I've met, a bunch of who I still play with. Many of them are bad players or DMs in a professional sense, but incredibly funny and interesting people to hang with around the table.

So for me the one big negative aspect of normalizing roleplaying as a paid for activity is if it means DMs - and players - are expected to live up to some streamlined professional market standard. Perhaps it has already come to that with streaming big shows and the Mercer effect, but please leave room for non-commercialized gaming with og nerds and geeks.

 

[Hussar]

I've never heard of a paid DM here in little Sweden, perhaps it exist. If people want to pay to play or DM for cash, go for it.

But for me one of the best parts of the hobby over the decades has been all the wonderfully weird and odd people I've met, a bunch of who I still play with. Many of them are bad players or DMs in a professional sense, but incredibly funny and interesting people to hang with around the table.

So for me the one big negative aspect of normalizing roleplaying as a paid for activity is if it means DMs - and players - are expected to live up to some streamlined professional market standard. Perhaps it has already come to that with streaming big shows and the Mercer effect, but please leave room for non-commercialized gaming with og nerds and geeks.

Again, I doubt there is any chance of this. I really doubt that professional DMing (such as it is) will ever become more than a tiny corner of the hobby. The overwhelming majority of us will play the way we've always played, for good or for ill.

Even things like the "Mercer effect" is just such a small, minuscule drop in the bucket. There are many, many, many more gamers out there who have never seen an episode of Critical Role than have. Most gamers only know the show by name (or maybe by animation).

The existence of professional pretty much anything has largely zero impact on the hobby of whatever activity people choose to do in their free time.

 

[Reynard]

I wonder if the spread of online gaming has had an impact here. I imagine Covid has made it much harder for people to find live games, so, a pay game, where you don't have flakey DM's and flakey players, isn't a bad option.

Additionally, let's not forget, that the HUGE growth of D&D in the past five or so years, has made it actually an option to do this. Before, you really couldn't do the paid DM thing because there just wasn't enough players. But now? Now you've got a pretty broad range of players who may have the money to make a paid game their choice.

There also seems to be a generational reluctance to get behind the screen for many GenZ and younger millennial players. I'm not sure why, but there's circumstantial evidence all over Reddit, not to mention a major uptick in GM emulators (although that could be more pandemic related since it is wrapped up in solo play).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

There also seems to be a generational reluctance to get behind the screen for many GenZ and younger millennial players. I'm not sure why, but there's circumstantial evidence all over Reddit, not to mention a major uptick in GM emulators (although that could be more pandemic related since it is wrapped up in solo play).

They have to work longer hours and have less disposable income than older folk.

 

[Mannahnin]

I don't know; I think a shortage of DMs/GMs has always been a thing. Hence the "forever GM" trope, which several regulars on here have talked about being, because no one else they play with ever wants to do it.

This was also the original motivation behind Colville's Running the Game videos, as well, IIRC. He wanted to popularize the idea that running the game is less difficult and more fun than people think, and increase the number of DMs out there. And Colville's what, around 50? He's not playing with a bunch of zoomers.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I scrolled through their various GM's, and found one guy who thinks he is worth 40 bucks US a session, per player. At those rates, it is almost a gig that pays the mortgage. The average rate seems to be 25 bucks per player per session.

I'm not sure that I would do either run for money or pay... but I think $40 a session is still nnot that expensive. I did some math a while ago and figured I spend about as much time preping my games as I would a part time job... like 20+ hours a week. but that is AFTER world creation... I figure I have spent a few hundred hours making my worlds. If every week for a year I made $50 that would be $2,600 most people I know make more than that a month, and I am sure no one is making less then that a year (min wage here in states is $15,600 a year and my state min is double that at $31,200)

 

[delericho]

I'm not sure that I would do either run for money or pay... but I think $40 a session is still nnot that expensive. I did some math a while ago and figured I spend about as much time preping my games as I would a part time job... like 20+ hours a week. but that is AFTER world creation... I figure I have spent a few hundred hours making my worlds. If every week for a year I made $50 that would be $2,600 most people I know make more than that a month, and I am sure no one is making less then that a year (min wage here in states is $15,600 a year and my state min is double that at $31,200)

Yeah, it's not going to be a main source of income. Possibly good as a side hustle, or maybe as part of a portfolio career. Even then, I expect most people could come up with something that pays better, if simply maximizing incomes were the goal.

 

[HaroldTheHobbit]

Again, I doubt there is any chance of this. I really doubt that professional DMing (such as it is) will ever become more than a tiny corner of the hobby. The overwhelming majority of us will play the way we've always played, for good or for ill.

Even things like the "Mercer effect" is just such a small, minuscule drop in the bucket. There are many, many, many more gamers out there who have never seen an episode of Critical Role than have. Most gamers only know the show by name (or maybe by animation).

The existence of professional pretty much anything has largely zero impact on the hobby of whatever activity people choose to do in their free time.

That's what I hope. But when stuff gets commercialized it tends to have trickle-down effects, and nowadays I don't underestimate the power of money to change things for the worse.

Not that it matter for me personally since I have my permanent table of grogs, it's the principle of roleplaying as an inclusive, open and pretty cheap hobby.