How many PrC is okay?

[Crothian]

And when I see players seeking mutiple PrCs I get veeeery eyebrow twitchy.

Why? As long as they are having fun, who cares? Personally, if if my players were min maxing fiends, I could handle it as a DM and still challenge them. So, let the players do what is fun for them. There are so many simple DMing tricks to keep the game fun for any type of stly of gaming, that one should not punish the PCs becasue their style is a little different.

 

[BryonD]

Agree? Anyone? Anyone?

Nope.

I still think you have it 180 degrees wrong.

You are the one hung up on the meta game concepts.

heck if you want to give everyone death ray guns that do 8d8 as a ranged touch attacks and ialso gnore displacement effects, fine if everyone is keen on it, then be my guest - I just am looking for a nod toward balance.

Maybe I am a little thick, but could you please go back a clearly explain to me where 8d8 ranged touch attacks and multiple PClasses are associated? (Even in an extreme overstated example, being absurd to make a point kind of way)

 

[Piratecat]

Which approach better suits the character? For myself, I'd go with the first solution. Yeah, it's a little munchy, but it puts together the right package of abilities right off the bat, and lets the player get down and play.

Seasong, I agree. In general I think I prefer to do character design by changing the least possible amount of core rules. I actively try to avoid house rules, so I like players to work within the system when possible when designing their character. PrCs are a reluctant exception.

Mordane also has a valid point. I greatly prefer prestige classes that make sense from a story perspective, which (although bad design to require such a thing) in practice helps minimize or eliminate PrC jumping. I can think of a good half-dozen ways to discourage the PrC dabbler, just off the top of my head.

Edited for clarity!

 

[seasong]

A few specific, post-specific points.

So Players, in an effort to "get more" out of leveling, want a PrC class that gives them something to look forward to.

Total Powergaming IMO.

"Something to look forward to" does not equal "more power". So... on what basis are you calling "wanting something to look forward to" powergaming?

If Mara does not like a level of Paladin, how about a level or 4 of fighter? No "standard" class is good enough, right? That type of sentiment raises my eyebrows.

Yes, but why? If I want to roleplay a paladin who has seen the sun god and for whom that god's light shines through like a beacon, which "standard" class would you recommend?

Fighter is no good for that at all. Fighter might be good for more power during the twilight levels of Paladin, sure, but isn't that what you're against?

So, did Blackjack ask to have some of the powers removed from paladin, and instead take one's more suited to KotCoE? I dunno, maybe he did. P-Cat may have an exceptional group.

In other words, "did Blackjack ask for a PrC based on the Paladin's balance scheme?".

Modifying "standard" classes is just another phrase for "building a balanced PrC".

This is a pretty strong statement to make, given the thread going on in house rules right now, and yes, sometimes I come off sounding a little heavy handed. Please note that I do not mean to denigrate anyone, or say "this or that is wrong" per se - heck if you want to give everyone death ray guns that do 8d8 as a ranged touch attacks and ialso gnore displacement effects, fine if everyone is keen on it, then be my guest - I just am looking for a nod toward balance.

Thus the Fighter suggestion?

Seriously, until you see the PrC, you can't make a claim of nodding at balance. And even then, the only balance that matters is the balance between players. The DM can always munch the monsters.

 

[seasong]

Seasong, in general I think I prefer to do character design by changing the least possible amount of core rules. I actively try to avoid house rules, so I like players to work within the system when possible when designing their character. PrCs are a reluctant exception.

Huh? Everything I stated was within the rules. Didn't talk about changing a single core rule. Nope, nope.

Granted, my own home game has tons of house rules, but that's my game. I'm talking in general here, so I left that out. The military scout example is a standards-abiding citizen, who just happens to be Ranger 1/Rogue 12+/PrC 1+.

 

[Mordane76]

But your scout only has one PrC, seasong. As for the 1 level of ranger, and the wilderness abilities it entails, there is nothing say that said military scout doesn't have a background reason for having those skills.

I just don't understand what's so munchy about more than PrC. Also, is there a munchiness distinction between 3/5 level PrC and 10 level PrC?

 

[seasong]

Re: The PrC being only one: I was responding to incognito's charges of metagame munching. The 1 level of ranger is an acknowledged munch. And of course there's background reasons, or I wouldn't allow it. Just like PirateCat wouldn't allow those PrCs if there weren't background reasons for them. I'm disagreeing with incognito's blanket assertion that a munched character is always a munched character.

Re: PirateCat's comment: I was asking what he was talking about with the "system change" stuff, since I was munching within the system.

 

[Bronz Dragon]

I think most of what good DMing is about is maintaining plot (and thus character) developement.

If a DM can do this while keeping completely with the standard classes outlined in the players handbook, well and good. If another DM does this in his own special way, modifying class abilities here, juicing up an enemy there to make it more apropo to a setting or a plot (making it undead or insane if it's supposed to be a good guy) also well and good. Even if they allow their PCs to make massively overpowered PRCs and have huge 'collateral damage' battles which devastate whole countrysides.... STILL well and good.

Many people deplore special effects as being a childish and unnecessary detraction from the plot. I personally think LotR (thus far) is a brilliant show with oodles and oodles of character developement but also overflowing with stunning visual effects and incredible camerawork.

As long as a balance is struck it doesn't matter which way you lean. You can be a hardcore disciplinarian in you DMing style, but your players may chafe under your iron fist. You can be libertarian and munchkinish, but your players may loose interest when they either kill everything in a hit or get slaughtered in 2 rounds.

Just my two cents... or dollars, as it were (darned inflation)

 

[Piratecat]

Huh? Everything I stated was within the rules. Didn't talk about changing a single core rule. Nope, nope.

No, I was agreeing with you, you goober! Wholehearted agreement! Heh - I'll go edit. It really wasn't clear at all. Sorry about that.

And Incognito, my apologies if I overreacted. Your concern is certainly valid, I just take issue with how you expressed it.

One of the interesting things about FFG's Legendary Classes is that they do a nice job of satisfying a higher powered game, since their requirements are higher. That allows me to insert abilities that would be less balanced in a lower level game (such as burning x number of turn undeads for a resurrection effect, for instance) without messing up existing game balance. I think that at higher levels, game balance becomes more flexible. There's certainly less of a difference between Nolin (19th lvl) and Mara (15th lvl) than there would be between a 5th lvl bard and a 1st lvl paladin.

 

[Mordane76]

Balance becomes more flexible at higher levels? I don't know if I agree with that -- shouldn't players of X level be around the same power level? Even into Epic levels, with Epic PrC, shouldn't there be a more or less basal level of balance? I worry about this all the time when I tweak classes and PrC, because I worry that players will think I'm playing favorites, or that I'm buffing one aspect of my story over another.

But, back to PrC -- what do you all think is the average number of PrC a PC has? Do you all see a lot of players going for more than one PrC? Is there any obvious patterns emerging in your games involving PrC?