How many PrC is okay?

[seasong]

PirateCat: Yeah, I'm a goober . It just read like, "I read your post, but..."

 

[Crothian]

But, back to PrC -- what do you all think is the average number of PrC a PC has? Do you all see a lot of players going for more than one PrC? Is there any obvious patterns emerging in your games involving PrC?

The most I've seen one PC have is 2, and that's cause he maxed out the first one. In the current game all 5 of us are 9th level and no prestige classes yet, and only one person is looking to aquire one. So for me prestige classes were more seen in the first year and a half of d20.

 

[Nail]

I'm not sure I've ever seen PC so riled up. Wow..... Yer got 'is buttons pushed, Incog! Stand back!

OK, I started a small hullabaloo on P-Cats thread, which was somewhat rude (I did apologize), but here is the forum for me to go to work.

But so many stand against us! Aaack! Quick, back-to-back, swords drawn!

FWIW, I'll throw down with Incog., on some of it anyway.

Can't you see Mara now? "Back, foul demons! I have an extra remove disease!"

The problem I have with multi-PrCs is this very thing: That the higher level cool abilities of the old core class or PrC no longer serve, and there are "better" abilities out there. I suppose if each PrC wasn't so front-loaded....but have you ever seen one that's not?

The present example (Mara, the Paladin) is a poor example, and a highly prized and respected character, so perhaps we should drop it. How about my Brd1/Mnk7/NotCM2/ShDncr1/RA2? Another prized character, but since it's mine, what the hey.....

There have been calls of "only if background justifies the character concept". Is any one suggesting that there exist some combinations that could not be woven together into an interesting and convincing story line/background? Bah humbug. There are wonderful story hours written on these boards that prove otherwise.

Multiple PrCs are the best way to power game.....and therefore, by association, having multiple PrCs implies........???

 

[Guilt Puppy]

The problem I have with multi-PrCs is this very thing: That the higher level cool abilities of the old core class or PrC no longer serve, and there are "better" abilities out there. I suppose if each PrC wasn't so front-loaded....but have you ever seen one that's not?

Um, most of them? Granted, most get something to flesh out their schtick a little at first level, but it's generally in keeping with the power level of most core classes (really, I think Level One of almost any core class is more powerful than Level One of most of the PrC's I've seen)... Generally, PrC's are back-loaded, which is to say, they usually don't get their really big nugget until their final level.

 

[taran]

Multiple PrCs are the best way to power game.....and therefore, by association, having multiple PrCs implies........???

This logic only works if you assume that the only reason to take multiple PrC's is to powergame. This is clearly false. In other words, having multiple PrC's implies nothing about their intentions. If you dared to tell me that my players were munchkins on this little evidence, I'd be royally pissed. And I absolutely would not comment on your Brd1/Mnk7/NotCM2/ShDncr1/RA2 (except maybe to ask, "What's a NotCM? And an RA?") unless you were a player in my game, in which case I'd ask for that fantasic background. In writing. Not for power reasons though, anything with a level of Bard and seven of Monk can't be too overpowered

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Mordane76 ---
How many PrC is okay?

I cannot make an absolute judgement call on this subject, especially when everyone's game is different. I can only tell you how I deal with it, IMC:

1) PrCs are a variant. (Therefore, I have absolute control over what is allowed and what isn't.)


2a) I have ruled that every PrC must be a part of an organization or college or brotherhood or what have you within the campaign world. Therefore, the first requirement to gaining a PrC is to gain entrance to the organization. Which may be difficult, especially if a character is already a member of another organization.

2b) In order to continue gaining levels in a PrC, a character must train with members of that organization.

2c) Membership into an organization has its own benefits and hindrances. (Mwhahaha!)


3) All PrCs must be balanced with core classes. (Since that is the entire basis of the CR system. Any PrC that is inherently more powerful than a base class is disallowed, right off the bat. I think I will bring up, maybe...Peerless Archer?)
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Now I know this system has problems. The first being, where did the first member of a PrC come from? (I hand wave this by saying that PrCs happen after a bunch of people get together, form a group, train together, and slowly evolve together.)

 

[tburdett]

The PrC system really seems to encourage min/maxing, meta-gaming, and munchkins.

How many of you have seen players take certain skills and feats for their characters that are never used, but are required for a certain prestige class that they want to take?

How many of you have seen characters designed from first level to achieve a certain prestige class in the absolute minimum amount of time?

I've seen both on more than one occasion and it bothers me. Does that make it bad or wrong? No, but it's not my idea of what good role-playing is supposed to be.

In my opinion, PrC's have become the new yardstick for Monty Haul campaigns. The farther you move down the PrC road the less likely your campaign will remain balanced. Could it be fun? Sure. Does it make it harder for the DM? Sure. Is it worth it? That's for the DM to decide. It's not worth it for me.

DM's shouldn't have to offer new and exotic PrC's to keep their players interested. The story, action, and role-playing should do that. DM's who replace any of the above with PrC's will still have bored players when the new-PrC smell is gone.

In closing, the game is fun and playable without having to use any PrC's. Players and DM's who disagree should spend some time thinking about their motivations.

 

[Nail]

BTW: I hope y'all are taking this in the right spirit. There's a smile behind all o' this vitriol, nicht var? (I seem to remember a big one on PC's old avatar.) Here's mine => (Note all o' th' teeth!)

...(snip)...you seem to be assuming that the "interesting and convincing story line/background" would be a hollow facade, a cheat, a way to fake the DM into giving the power gamer what s/he wants.

No assumption necessary. I'm just pointing out that having a "in-character justification" does not provide (even partial) cover against a charge of power-gaming. AoO's are possible against such a creature.

This logic only works if you assume that the only reason to take multiple PrC's is to powergame. This is clearly false.

Again, I'm not assuming anything of the sort. Implication is not proof, as you clearly point out.

If you dared to tell me that my players were munchkins on this little evidence, I'd be royally pissed.

Yes indeedy. Even a Super-DM would be angry.

And I absolutely would not comment on your Brd1/Mnk7/NotCM2/ShDncr1/RA2 (except maybe to ask, "What's a NotCM? And an RA?") unless you were a player in my game, in which case I'd ask for that fantasic background. In writing. Not for power reasons though, anything with a level of Bard and seven of Monk can't be too overpowered

NotCM: Ninja of the Crescent Moon, Sword & Fist
RA: Red Avenger, Sword & Fist

(Munchkin Note: Many Brd powers are determined only by Performance skill, not Brd level, and Mnk class gets Performance as a class skill.)

I wonder if you'd comment on my Wiz 1/ Clr 6/ DivOrcl 1/Scrd Ex 5/ Cntp 1/ ChInq 1? I admit, I chose the Wiz 1 for flavor only.

 

[taran]

No assumption necessary. I'm just pointing out that having a "in-character justification" does not provide (even partial) cover against a charge of power-gaming. AoO's are possible against such a creature.

I think that this is exactly backwards. Players shouldn't have to try to protect themselves from charges of metagaming. After all, a charge of "powergamer!" isn't about how good the character is; it's a criticism of the player, and the player's motives. Thus, the burden of proof should always, always, always be on the accuser. So no, an in-character justification doesn't protect against a charge of powergaming...but it shouldn't have to, because "powergaming" is not about the character. It's about the player. It is a slur against the player, and I don't think it's reasonable that players should have to preemptively protect themselves from that sort of abuse. Especially not in game.

Again, I'm not assuming anything of the sort. Implication is not proof, as you clearly point out.

Okay, fair enough. But then, what does this mean?

Originally posted by Nail

Multiple PrCs are the best way to power game.....and therefore, by association, having multiple PrCs implies........???

I can't see any way to read this other than "people with multiple PrC's are powergamers". Help?

NotCM: Ninja of the Crescent Moon, Sword & Fist
RA: Red Avenger, Sword & Fist

Belonging to both organizations might require some mighty fast in-game tapdancing, depending on how friendly the two organizations are (probably not at all, if they're based on the "actual" ninja clans).

(Munchkin Note: Many Brd powers are determined only by Performance skill, not Brd level, and Mnk class gets Performance as a class skill.)

Ah, I missed that. That's actually kinda interesting...is this character the guy playing the background music in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon? Seriously though, this character would tempt me to houserule the Bard, but for flavor reasons, not balance ones. And isn't there a little bit of irony in using a messed up core class as an example of how prestige classes are broken? Just a little?

I wonder if you'd comment on my Wiz 1/ Clr 6/ DivOrcl 1/Scrd Ex 5/ Cntp 1/ ChInq 1? I admit, I chose the Wiz 1 for flavor only.

::cracks open Defenders of the Faith, reads for a bit:: Going for the maximum number of domains, eh? The gameworld I'm running now doesn't have any faiths with Oracles, Exorcists, and Inquisitors, so you'd be outta luck. But for in-game reasons, not out of game. Ideally, you'd explain to me what sort of powers you want your character to have, and then we'd go from there, either finding a combination of classes and prestige classes that give the effect you want, or ::gasp:: building a new one. I did that for two of my recent players, and it worked out beautifully (one advanced both cleric and wizard caster levels, which sounds far more broken than it was. The other was a wizard/monk thing which, though strictly superior to a 50/50 wizard/monk split, was still terrible. The player was happy with it, though. Live and learn).

 

[Skade]

Please forgive the paraphrasing, I just did not want this to take up too much space on the screen and I imagine most will have read your original post. I will respond to bullet points if that is OK.

1 This is essentially the heart of my argument. Some classes are front loaded...So Players, in an effort to "get more" out of leveling, want a PrC class that gives them something to look forward to. ...Total Powergaming IMO.

2 So, did Blackjack ask to have some of the powers removed from paladin, and instead take one's more suited to KotCoE? I dunno, maybe he did. P-Cat may have an exceptional group.

3 but again, here we have a player posting to the same message board as the DM, trolling for PrC which fit his feats, skills and (hopefully) Character background. And I am told this is not Meta-Gamey.

4 We all love the DoDs, and P-Cat's story hour, but I needed a forum to stress that player crafted PrCs or even DM crafted PrCs created to help out a player frustrated with his PC advancement is kinda munchy.

5 And when I see players seeking mutiple PrCs I get veeeery eyebrow twitchy.

6Agree? Anyone? Anyone?

1

1) I happen to agree with you on this one. The paladin especially is a bit front loaded, suffereing in many campaigns from having limited use after a certain level. I have always felt that cure disease is pointless in my games, which frankly disease rarely rears its head. Now for the disclaimer: it is unlikely that we are going to fully agree on anything here. It is all personal preference. I don't THINK of myself as a power gamer, and yet I am the multiclass king. I develop my characters levels based on a two things, my conception of who and what I wish them to be, and the events that happen within the game.

For the Scarred Lands I wanted tp play a character with some dark past, but really working towards redemption. i wanted this to come up in game and cause complications for my character. So I made Kiran Tharis, these were 9th level characters (this is something we occassionally do, if someone wants to run a brief campaign and a specific characetr level we make new chars accordingly). She started off as a bard, from Shellzzar. She played the games that people do there, including murder, bribery, theft, seduction, etc. Eventually she gets too greedy and makes an enemy she cannot avoid. She ends up gaining the confidence of a paladin of Corean and he helps her escape. He of course learns of what she did. Despite this he continues to defend her, even unto his death. Taking up his weapons she decides to follow his example, desiring to defend those weaker than herself. She does not quite have the faith though, and begins her career as a figher. Eventually the events necessary to transform her soul occur, and now she's a paladin. Three classes so far. Is this power gaming?

2) This is presented as an option in the players handbook, but you would be surprised how often my players have balked at this idea. Even if it would give them exactly what they were looking for they were afraid it would somehow hurt them. Strange.

3) I think players should be involved in the design characters, don't you? I often do not play with a screen, and I certainly don't expect my players to just accept whatever prestige class I throw at them.

4) I don't have a rebuttal for this, but I am seeking a clarification. How is a group crafter PrC more munchy than one from a published book? I would think that many PrCs come froma similar source, the wish to transform a character concept, or power concept into a viable rule set.

5) I only twitch when the PrCs seem incompatible. Someone beinga Harper and a deepwood sniper is not a problem to me. Someone being a Wizard of Thay and belonging to the Spellgaurd is. I also do not allow my PrCs to simply be a new set of rules. There are story considerations. One does not just shirk their duties, or betray them. Some are obviously easier in this regard.

6) Agree with you? On some points, and with some groups and players I have known, I can certainly see your point. I don't think that every situation is necessarily overly crunchy. It's sometimes good fun to have tons of ka-ewl abilities, so long as the story is not totally forgotten.

Sorry that took so much space.