How many PrC is okay?

[seasong]

That's not (IMO) the intent of PrCs. It is also my belive that WotC did not expect characters to take on multiple PrCs.

This is why, for example, we have 5-level PrCs that can be qualified for at reasonably low levels.

I agree with you on one thing (and, in fact, stated this above): a PrC should be fundamental to the character, a big part of who they are. It should not be taken lightly, or without strong justification. That makes it difficult for more than one PrC to fit, but not impossible.

Consider a generic gaming world. The players ask the DM to find a PrC for them that fits an existing feat, sklills, alignment, and class chain: oh yeah, and I'm going to gain a level of it next week (or in a few weeks).

Add one thing: The last game, the characters in question spoke directly to their GOD. A generic world god, granted, but that's something the DM tossed in which is prompting a life change in the characters.

Quel justification?

Final note: I think the DM should be the one to come up with ALL the PrCs in his/her world. Ideally, all created at the beginning of the campaign, but genrally created NOT with an existing character in mind.

You crazy, man, crazy. I pump out 2-5 thousand words a DAY and I couldn't manage that.

I have lists of things in my head, broad concept statements if you will, that could eventually become an actual "prestige ability chain", but there's simply too many things I want to have available, from Orc War Drummer to Necromancer to Shield of Allas (sun god) to Warrior of Aphas (love god).

And if a player comes up with a concept that fits my setting perfectly and is cool to boot, I'm going to deny it because I didn't come up with it? Heck no. That smacks of control freak beyond even my meager worth .

Whew, a mouthful -bring on the bashing, I did ask for it this time...

As mentioned, I do agree with some of what you say, but I think your position is too extremist.

 

[Mordane76]

**waves the "agrees with Seasong" flag **

I guess I've been lucky in this department, though; I haven't had any players try and develop a PrC. I've had one develop a few martial arts styles, and they're fairly potent, but they can't be achieved, even by a fighter with feats, before twelfth level, so I'm pretty happy...

Also, in a homebrew undergoing play-testing (my present situation), I think it's definitely closed-minded to not allow players to develop things alongside the DM ---> they're playing the characters, and in essence defining a good deal of what I think and what others think about their respective races. If they have what I believe is an insider's and trailblazer's view of the race, then their voice should count largely in the development of that race and its nuances. Even in a more established homebrew or an official setting, it feels a little dismissive to close off development options to players.

 

[MerakSpielman]

any answers to the question of whether PrCs accumulate XP penalties like PHB classes do?

 

[Mordane76]

I really would love to answer this one right now, but I'm at work and I don't have my DMG, else I would have page-numbered it immediately. Is someone reading/writing to this thread that has a DMG handy and can look in the section just preceding the PrC in there to see what it says about XP penalties for PrC?

 

[incognito]

seaong: I'll answer your Q's. So there are 5 level PrCs. WHat's so bad about having the character go back to standard classes after that. Except that the PCs have tasted of the forbidden fruit, and found it's flavor very intoxicating.

That makes it difficult for more than one PrC to fit, but not impossible.

Ok, if you want to make it difficult - not impossible fine. but I would be looking for a character to almost be sub-par in other respects to convince me this was a role-playing decision, rather than a power-gamey decision.

Add one thing: The last game, the characters in question spoke directly to their GOD.

Divine intervention, whether directly, or indirectly is one of the staples of high fantasy (and low fantasy). Clerics regualrly cast Commune and other divinations. Are you sayign any time a character meets a god he is entitled to a PrC? No, I'm sure you are not.

I don't care if over the last level, the player talked an entire army out of attacking his or her home town in an impassioned, multi-session role-playing extravaganza. If that same player came to me the next session with a custom designed PrC with qualifications that matched his or her background and some crazy, front loaded abilities, I'd say no. What I would do is give them a role playing, XP "story" award, and thank them from making our game more enjoyable.

One rewards roleplaying, the other rewards power gaming, n'est pas?

You crazy, man, crazy. I pump out 2-5 thousand words a DAY and I couldn't manage that.

Yet you can flesh out an entire world, complete with thoughts on necromancy, currency, A CUSTOM ORC LANGUAGE (!?!!?) atypical XP advancement for the general popualce, etc etc? You sell yourself short. With these boards (and other *coff*boards), there should be little need for player involvement.

The bottom line is, their is an inherent conflict of interest when players design PrCs. In real life, we have very strict rules about peolpe in financial industries, law, medicine/psychology with regards to these conflicts.

and in real life, you cannot just say. "oh, well Dr. so and so, won't abuse the patient-doctor priveledge, so we let him disclose medical facts if he wants to. Becasue the possiblity and the sugggestion of impropriety remain, even if none has been commited.

In this spirit, I am not extremeist, simply conservative.

 

[incognito]

MerakSpielman: No, there are no XP penalaties for multi-classing with PrCs, even mutiple PrCs

 

[Mordane76]

Still, I have to say there is a difference between the professional world and the world of D&D ---> the game exists for the enjoyment of the players involved, including the DM. The real-world argument against player involvement, while valid on many faces, does not hold on this face. If we don't allow the players a say in how the world evolves on all levels, then why should they play? I know as DM we're "large and in charge" when it comes to the things in our game worlds... but from a player presceptive would find such a an attitude very off-putting if it came from a DM.

 

[seasong]

Divine intervention, whether directly, or indirectly is one of the staples of high fantasy (and low fantasy). Clerics regualrly cast Commune and other divinations. Are you sayign any time a character meets a god he is entitled to a PrC? No, I'm sure you are not.

Eh, I'm saying that the event was special, it was DM-instigated, and I think you know it .

I don't care if over the last level, the player talked an entire army out of attacking his or her home town in an impassioned, multi-session role-playing extravaganza. If that same player came to me the next session with a custom designed PrC with qualifications that matched his or her background and some crazy, front loaded abilities, I'd say no. What I would do is give them a role playing, XP "story" award, and thank them from making our game more enjoyable.

Now, here, you're just misrepresenting things. We're not talking about the PCs designing their PrC in a vacuum.

Or maybe you are, but I'm not. The players are requesting a PrC, maybe even submitting some ideas for how they would like it to look, but they aren't designing it.

The bottom line is, their is an inherent conflict of interest when players design PrCs. In real life, we have very strict rules about peolpe in financial industries, law, medicine/psychology with regards to these conflicts.

Conflict of interest requires actual power to do so. A PC who takes on some of the work burden of hashing out a starting point, which the DM then adjudicates, edits, nerfs and otherwise controls has no conflict of interest. Now, if the DM were to simply say "yeah, sure, design whatever you want", there is a conflict of interest... but it is caused by the DM saying that, not by the act of a player working out the details.

Regarding working out PrCs ahead of time:

Yet you can flesh out an entire world, complete with thoughts on necromancy, currency, A CUSTOM ORC LANGUAGE (!?!!?) atypical XP advancement for the general popualce, etc etc? You sell yourself short. With these boards (and other *coff*boards), there should be little need for player involvement.

A PrC, in my humble opinion, needs at least a thousand words of flavor text. If I had only ten PrCs, that would be 3-4 days of doing nothing else to get them written, flavor text only. I'd rather be writing my thoughts on necromancy, currency, orc words, etc., than hashing out the details of PrCs that don't matter yet. When it looks like a PrC will matter, I'll hash it out, but otherwise it wastes valuable writing time*.

(For those familiar with the story hour - yes, I have "prestige classes", they just don't look like classes, but feat chains).

*Some smart alecs will be inclined to point out that I am wasting it right now. Not so! A discussion of theory with incognito is never wasted.

 

[seasong]

**waves the "agrees with Seasong" flag **

I didn't know they were still selling those .

 

[MerakSpielman]

Mordane76 - You play to have FUN?!?!?!?

What's the world coming to?

No, there are no XP penalaties for multi-classing with PrCs, even mutiple PrCs

Thanks Incognito. I think there should be, frankly.