D&D 5E How Many Spaces on a Grid Does Cloud of Daggers Effect?

[Stormonu]

Wait...

So let's say your party is in a 20ft hallway, such that width-wise, it covers 4 squares on a grid. They get into combat and the druid wants to cast Web such that it is anchored between the two walls. How would you rule that on the grid-based system?

If they choose a wall as a point of origin, then they would be choosing a point on either a grid-line or intersection. If they choose a point centered on the center of a grid square, the web will collapse before the duration ends.

The web fills a 20 foot cube, so it would be anchored on each side.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

From both a simulationist standpoint and a gamist standpoint, one space.

No other answer is reasonable.

The web fills a 20 foot cube, so it would be anchored on each side.

Fully agreed. If it fills a 20' cube, it is touching the edges of that cube. The lateral edges of the cube, in this case, would be the walls. There are no longitudinal anchors (as the hallway continues forward and backward). The floor obviously provides a bottom vertical anchor; whether there is a top vertical anchor depends on the hallway's design.

 

[Asisreo]

The web fills a 20 foot cube, so it would be anchored on each side.

Still a bit confused so I put up a visual:

If it anchors on both points, the PoO will be on the wall as for the first figure.

If the PoO is in the center of the grid space, it will be like the second figure and won't be anchored.

I guess we can assume the ceiling is 25ft or higher, such that the web wouldn't be anchored if not connected to the walls.

 

[jgsugden]

I hope our future edition will assume the grid is used in the future to limit these types of uncertainties.

I handle these issues by telling the player that placing the spell so precisely requires skill. It just makes sense to me that if you're trying to be really precise in placement, you need to account for a risk of failure to execute as intended.

They'll have to make an arcana (int based or charisma based) / religion / nature check to place the spell. We'll quickly negotiate what types of risks they want to take ("I really want to get the leader, but am willing to risk missing the minions"). Then the result of their check will determine how many of their intended targets they get. Generally, DC 20 allows great 2D positioning and DC 25 gets you great 3D positioning.

So if there are four medium targets in a square formation with four flying tiny creatures above them creating a cube of enemies, I'd handle various scenarios like this:

Scenario 1:
Player: "I want to try to get all 8 creatures in my Cloud of Daggers."
DM: "As the creatures in the air are tiny and flying, this is especially difficult. The DC to get all of them will be 28. Are there any targets you really want to make sure you get?"
Player: "Nope. I just want as many as I can get."
DM: "Roll a trained Charisma Roll."
Player: "... 23."
DM: "Pretty solid but you missed by 5. Roll a d8 for each creature. On a 1 through 6 you get a medium creatures. On a 1 through 4 you get a flying creatures."
Player: " ... OK, I get these 2 mediums and these 2 flyers. "

Scenario 2:
Player: "I want to try to get all 8 creatures in my Cloud of Daggers."
DM: "As the creatures in the air are tiny and flying, this is especially difficult. The DC to get all of them will be 28. Are there any targets you really want to make sure you get?"
Player: "I really want to get that spellcaster to try to break concentration. Other than that, I think the flying ones are the priority."
DM: "If you want to be sure to get the leader, the DC rises to 30 to get them all. However, no matter what you'll get the leader. The other creatures will be less likely to be caught in it, but the chances of getting the tiny flying creatures will be the same as getting the other medium creatures. Normally they'd be harder to get."
Player: "Understood ... Trained Charisma? 23."
DM: "Pretty solid but you missed by 7. Roll a die for each of the other 7 creatures. If it is odd you get them. If it is even you miss them."
Player: " ... OK, I get 1 of the other mediums and these 3 flyers. "

Scenario 3:
Player: "I want to try to get all 8 creatures in my Cloud of Daggers."
DM: "As the creatures in the air are tiny and flying, this is especially difficult. The DC to get all of them will be 28. Are there any targets you really want to make sure you get?"
Player: "I really want to get that spellcaster to try to break concentration. I'm willing to risk missing those tiny flying creatures."
DM: "Got it. We'll have you roll your check. You'll get the main spellcaster in the area automatically. On a 23 or above you definitely get all of the ground creatures. On a 30 or above you get all 8. Those tiny creatures would be harder to get in the area normally, but if you're not prioritizing them you're likely to miss them."
Player: "Understood ... Trained Charisma? 23."
DM: "Nice. All four of the ground creatures are in. Roll a d8 for each of the tiny creatures. On a 1 they are included in the area."
Player: "... Nope. None of the flyers."

I fully acknowledge I am not perfectly consistent on these types of things - I go with my gut in the moment. However, it has worked very well for me in the past for situations like this, for targeting an area spell in a place that can't be seen, etc...

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I hope our future edition will assume the grid is used in the future to limit these types of uncertainties.

Or they could assume a grid won't be used, and just say 'the spell affects 1d6 creatures' for area effects. What we now have assumes a grid is always in use, without the accompanying exactness that you would expect from grid use.

 

[Charlaquin]

The general rule for the area of a cube is that its point of origin is on one of its faces. The specific rule for cloud of daggers is that the cube it creates is centered on a point. Specific beats general, therefore cloud of daggers can affect up to four squares.

 

[Stormonu]

View attachment 264045
Still a bit confused so I put up a visual:

If it anchors on both points, the PoO will be on the wall as for the first figure.

If the PoO is in the center of the grid space, it will be like the second figure and won't be anchored.

I guess we can assume the ceiling is 25ft or higher, such that the web wouldn't be anchored if not connected to the walls.

Basically, I don't allow partial fill (half in this square, half in that square). It's 20 feet to side, so pick a 4 X 4 square area. Your 2nd PoO would not be valid.

 

[Asisreo]

Basically, I don't allow partial fill (half in this square, half in that square). It's 20 feet to side, so pick a 4 X 4 square area. Your 2nd PoO would not be valid.

Oh, I thought you were saying that you couldn't pick a point of origin that lies on the grid's lines or intersection.

 

[Hexmage-EN]

Something that crossed my mind just now is that, if you go with the "centered on an intersection" interpretation of a point described in the DMG for Cloud of Daggers, since the area doesn't completely cover any one space it should be possible to use the squeezing rules to move through unharmed.

Maybe the designer's intent is that it could be used to obstruct a 10-foot wide hallway but also allow for creatures to hug the wall to get past if they're willing to squeeze by.

 

[Plaguescarred]

In grid play, Cloud of Daggers can affect 1-4 squares as you choose an intersection of squares as the point of origin of an area of effect, which lies anywhere on a face of the cubic effect as per the rules.

Also per Sage Advice Compendium;

Using 5-foot squares, does cloud of daggers affect a single square? Cloud of daggers (5 ft. cube) can affect more than one square on a grid, unless the DM says effects snap to the grid. There are many ways to position that cube