How many times...?

[lukelightning]

That character is evil, for the exact reason Seeker95 states. This person, with premeditation, decided to mutilate (and possibly kill) someone over some harrassment. This isn't an "accidental" death. This isn't retaliating with intimidation or even "regular" physical violence (whatever happened to a good old punch in the gut?")

If your first reaction to unliked people is to burn their face off, you are not neutral.

 

[Uder]

Another reason why alignment is a dated concept that should be removed from future editions. Play your character how you think they would react.

Well... since players choose their alignment and can now (IIRC) change without penalty, it's the best of both worlds right? Alignment isn't a slot you fit into any more, it's a coat you wear.

Note that alignment just means how your character acts OVERALL. A single evil act hardly justifies an alignment change. Neither does a single noble act.

However you want it really. Alignment is so loosely defined and has few (but noticeable) game effects, so each group can treat it how they like it. In my games, it's a measure of your spiritual aura - the worldview you think is most correct. This allows me to have thoroughly evil Lawful Good NPCs... but let's not go there.

 

[werk]

The problem is that burning her face off is an extremely cruel and destructive act. A neutral character could have:

threatened to go to the local authorities (lawful neutral response)
thrown the garbage right back at her or joined right in throwing it at other people (chaotic neutral response)

Only an evil character would respond in a way that's more about showing how powerful and callous he is than about stopping the annoying person or removing oneself from her presence. A good-aligned PC would have put up with her abuse and tried to help remove whatever disease or curse she suffered from.

I can't literally burn her face off, there are no called shots or face burning spells, but I did zap her with a fire based spell effect...but that's neither here nor there.

The young cleric is LN, and there are no local authorities. EDIT: rather, the local authorities were KILLED and that's why our party is there.

I warned her (and everyone in the area) numerous times, establishing the wrongful act and punishment for the act. Everyone stopped, as I was limned in white fire, but not her.

How is this any different than "Stop or I'll shoot"? How many times do you have to say stop or I'll shoot before you are allowed to shoot?

 

[Arnwyn]

Your alignment is not "whatever you say it is". Your alignment is a reflection of your behavior, attitudes, and world views. If your character believes that burning someone's face off is an appropriate response to getting irritated, then your character is not "becoming evil from the one act". Your character is already evil.

Bingo.

 

[Crothian]

I warned her (and everyone in the area) numerous times, establishing the wrongful act and punishment for the act. Everyone stopped, as I was limned in white fire, but not her.

How is this any different than "Stop or I'll shoot"? How many times do you have to say stop or I'll shoot before you are allowed to shoot?

The punishment didn't fit the crime. That is a big issue here.

 

[el-remmen]

The punishment didn't fit the crime. That is a big issue here.

Didn't I say that twice already?

Sometimes I feel like I'm on universal ignore

 

[Agent Oracle]

I guess I don't understand...

Neutral characters are not allowed to perform good or evil acts without automatically having their alignment changed match?

If the little old lady was a feral orc, or a polymorphed red dragon, would that matter?

(sigh)

Yes. Let's run through this with a little teleplay...

Crazy Old lady: Millenium Hand and Shrimp! (throws garbage at party)

REALLY Good PC: "Gracious, what ever is the matter with that old woman?"

KINDA good PC: "Argh! please stop doing that!" (makes diplomacy check)

Neutral, leaning to good PC: " Argh! my clothing! what are you doing?"

Neutral PC: "Argh! My clothes! Stop it!"

Neutral, leaning to evil: "Stop it damnit! (makes intimidate check)"

KINDA EVIL pc: "Stop or i'll burn your face off!"

REALLY EVIL PC: (Burns woman's face off)

REALLY, REALLY EVIL PC: (leaves her alive with no face)

y'know, that was kinda fun... lemmie try some more...

Munchkin: (looks through the garbage, for anything that will give him plusses)

Loony: (starts throwing garbage back)

Manly Man: "I grab the lady by the shoulders, and slap her across the face." "Get ahold of yerself!"

Thespian: "My garments! they are soiled!"

Powergamer: (insists that the GM roll for the garbage to hit his 38 AC)

 

[jmucchiello]

How is this any different than "Stop or I'll shoot"? How many times do you have to say stop or I'll shoot before you are allowed to shoot?

Nobody shouts "stop or I'll shoot" (nobody trained in law enforcement anyway). You can shout "stop or I'll shoot" a million times. Not stopping (assuming you mean stop running) is not a valid reason to shoot. If not stopping involves choaking someone, then lethal force may be a valid response. This situation has little to do with D&D, though.

 

[werk]

The punishment didn't fit the crime. That is a big issue here.

"For example, in 1700s Britain, there were 222 crimes which were punishable by death, including crimes such as cutting down a tree or stealing an animal." -wikipedia
Look at how many countries still exist that possessing drugs or dressing inappropriately is punishable by death. Are they evil?

I don't want to start getting political, I just think that death is sometimes the only real punishment that can be executed against wrongdoers, especially in an anarchic or severely impoverished environment where people have nothing to lose.

We've already established that the character is not Good, that is a moot point...I guess I'm trying to discern exactly how evil his act was when viewed in light of the circumstances leading up to the act.

Should I have beaten up the old lady, or perhaps 'only' maimed her? That doesn't seem very not-evil to me. I was trying to restore order, and it was working, except for one troublemaker.

Throwing trash back is counter-productive, to say the least, it justifies her behavior and says it's OK to throw trash and scream at people. If a child punches you in the 'vital area' are you allowed to punch then right back in their 'vital area'? I hope not.

I could have arrested and detained her myself, but there was no established process for that or for trial, no codified law, etc, and we don't have the resources to expend to take care of a prisoner appropriately.

This is not a case where she threw poo at me and I turned and killed her. This is a case where she was told numerous times to stop her aggressive behavior and disperse.

IMHO if someone says stop or I'll shoot, you are fair warned to stop. The warning is what takes it from completely go-to-hell evil to stick-to-your-convictions neutral.


(I don't want this to sound like a heated argument, or like I'm being defensive. I'm not really protesting anything or defending myself, nothing happened to the character in game, like an alignment shift, it's just a discussion that I wanted to have after it happened. Thanks for all the great input.)

 

[el-remmen]

If she's not hurting anyone, why not just walk away?