How much back story for a low-level PC?

[Desdichado]

How so? Yours is one which means that the entire section on guidelines of expected power levels in various areas must be trashed. Or are you simply looking at the page which says the DM controls the game?

Dude, really? You make up rules for how characters gain XP and how they advance and how to become a lich, and you fall back on that as your retort? There is nothing that makes this character's mother unable to become a lich other than your own assumptions that you bring to the table that are not in the books and not part of the game overall.

See below for a standard D&D paradigm. Or look up the expected character levels by area from the 3e DMG (mine's with a friend) and tell me that that isn't now thoroughly destroyed.

Nothing you posted below actually supports your position. Why do you post it and talk about it as if its relevant?

Except what you are saying changed includes her personality (she became a driven and dedicated magical researcher and spellcaster), her stats (notably Int), and her capabilities (notably cash and resources).

No, none of those changed, because none of those were defined. And even if they did change, I didn't change the background, I propose that what happened was change that hapenned in the intervening ten years. That's the part that you keep continuously ignoring, which causes your argument to not actually, y'know, be a coherent one.

And seriously; why do you keep mentioning her intelligence score? Are you asserting that this PC background actually statted out the NPCs that were in it? Your failure to bring relevance to this discussion is astounding.

Her husband died in the last ten years. And you think that her becoming obsessed with something because of that is unreasonable? Words fail me. Really?

And no, I am absolutely telling you that it does not "destroy" level guidelines per area. Unless, of course, it's also your conclusion that it's unreasonable for liches to actually exist in D&D. Nobody said she just went to the local "lich store" and bought what she needed. Sure, it was hard work. Are you saying that characters are incapable of doing difficult things in your settings? Or that only PCs can? Your objections are becoming more and more unreasonable and absurd the longer this discussion continues.

I get it; you really don't like this particular plot twist. Just stick with that and quite trying to "prove" that it couldn't or shouldn't have been done. That's a losing proposition. At this point, you've dragged the idea into inanity.

She'd better have been working damn hard to pull that little list off in ten years. Even simply raising 27,000GPs for the cheapest possible phylactery is asking a lot for most NPCs. Frankly, changing into a tentacle monster from the neck down is a whole lot more plausible - when personality, capabilities, and stats have changed like that (especially personality) about all that's left is name and memories.

Sorry, but that's absolutely absurd. I don't even know how to respond to that other than to point out ---for I think the third or fourth time now--- that if PCs can amass that kind of wealth, experience, and resouces in much less time than ten years, your insistance that an NPC "can't possibly" do so is just freakin' bizarre. As is your insistence that this is change is implausible. You simply aren't even attempting to make a case that it is so, you're just ignoring the rules of the game as written and stubbornly repeating yourself when confronted with evidence that there's actually no great logical gap that needs to be crossed here.

In fact, your arguments cause major logical gaps, because if taken at face value, you are saying that you don't think that its reasonable for high level characters or liches to even exist at all.

Ridiculous.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Hobo, I agree with you that your plot twist is on the table. However, it is not going to far at all to suggest that anyone becoming a lich is a big step which is going to require major foreshadowing. And, no, one's partner dying is not major foreshadowing for such an event.

When I was doing editing for Cyber Age Adventures, this would have required a rewrite at least, and possibly have gotten your story rejected. And during that period, CAA won a first place Writers Digest award, so I think I have some small idea what I am talking about.


RC

 

[Neonchameleon]

Dude, really? You make up rules for how characters gain XP and how they advance and how to become a lich, and you fall back on that as your retort? There is nothing that makes this characters mother unable to become a lich other than your own assumptions that you bring to the table that are not in the books and not part of the game overall.

If, somehow, she had an int in the superhuman range then that would be worthy of notice in the background. From the lack we can assume she does not. And by giving her such you are changing her. If she was a wizard, we can assume that would be in her background - it would be noticeable and memorable. So whatever her existing levels are in, it can't be wizard.

Nothing you posted below actually supports your position. Why do you post it and talk about it as if its relevant?

Because it is. There are many extraordinary things required to become a lich. I was pointing them out.

No, none of those changed, because none of those were defined.

And it wasn't defined that she didn't have two heads and eight arms. But it would have been incredibly noticeable and therefore can assumed not to be the case. As would superhuman intelligence.

You don't need to define that someone doesn't have extraordinary and noticeable qualities, that is the default assumption.

And even if they did change, I didn't change the background, I propose that what happened was change that hapenned in the intervening ten years.

A gain of intelligence from the 9-13 range to around 21? Suuuure. And putting on 18 levels of wizard.

That's the part that you keep continuously ignoring,

I am not. I am simply saying that people don't change that much. You've changed her stats (made her superhumanly intelligent). You've changed her class (to wizard). What next? Changing her race? Oh, wait. She's now a lich.

(Now were she to simply have become a cult leader, that would have been fine)

which causes your argument to not actually, y'know, be a coherent one.

You mean you are either not reading it or not understanding it.

Her husband died in the last ten years. And you think that her becoming obsessed with something because of that is unreasonable? Words fail me. Really?

I think that her becoming more obsessed and capable than every other ambitious mage in the land - most of whom have a huge headstart is utterly unreasonable, yes.

And no, I'm telling you that it absolutely does not "destroy" levels per area. Unless, of course, it's also your conclusion that it's unreasonable for liches to actually exist in D&D.

:eyeroll:

Try actually trying to understand what I'm writing. You seem to think that a middle aged person with no prior class levels or outstanding talent gaining 18 in the slowest class is reasonable. I think that if they could do that then lots of people would have. This doesn't mean that you can't reach lichdom - merely that very few people have that potential, and that it takes inhuman training, dedication, and time. Not something that can be learned even in ten years.

On the other hand, if she was known to be superhumanly intelligent and to have had an early start on magic, only putting it to one side to raise her kids, yes it would be plausible. Just. Even then

Sorry, but that's absolutely absurd. I don't even know how to respond to that other than to point out ---for I think the third or fourth time now--- that if PCs can amass that kind of wealth, experience, and resouces in much less time than ten years, your insistance that an NPC "can't possibly" do so is just freakin' bizarre.

And I will point out. Again. That PCs draw on all their resources every day at risk to their lives. They grow by overcoming inhumanly tough challenges and that is why they level up so fast. Or die in the process (the reason most wizards don't do this - life expectancy of PCs is not good). It's destruct testing.

If she had literally reordered nations, faced down demons (or angels) and the whole range of other stuff done by PCs by the time they are in the teen levels, this would have had a huge impact on the world and would be known about. If she had not, then any comparison to the way PCs level is spurious - because she didn't do it that way.

Is there a massive swathe of corpses in her wake? Has she utterly reordered her surroundings? Did she join a party to compensate for her weaknesses (being incredibly squishy - remember housecats can beat up L1 wizards)? Or is the town more or less as it was before? In which case she didn't do things the PC way.

As if your insistence that this is change is implausible. You simply aren't even attempting to make a case that it is so, you're just ignoring the rules of the game as written and stubbornly repeating yourself when confronted with evidence that there's actually no great logical gap that needs to be crossed here.

No. You are either not reading or not understanding. If it's not understanding, all I can do is repeat the same arguments over again until I get bored.

 

[korjik]

At this point, I honestly have to ask; why is this player so invested in keeping her character's mom in this static environment? Why is she so invested in, "this is my mom; this can't possibly be what my character thought of my mom all her life, but my mom was secretly something else."

Why not have a mom who was a doppleganger? Why not have a mom who's a frog who was polymorphed and awakened by a kiss, but never told anyone? Why not have a mom who seems like the fantasy version of June Cleaver but who secretly sacrificed all the character's best friends to Orcus after she left town to increase her own power? Why not have a mom who turns into a horde of butterflies every night like a bizarre Ladyhawke?

NPCs can't keep secrets from the PCs now? Seriously; why not?

Why are you so invested in doing something that the player of the PC involved thinks is such a horrible idea?

It isnt anything in game that is the problem. If the DM wants, the mum can go from housewife to abomination in any time period wanted or needed. In D&D, everything can run at speed of plot.

The problem is when the player, not the PC, thinks it is a horrible idea. Korjik's mother is a scribe and father is an accountant. They traded in every favor they could to get their magically talented son an apprenticeship with a powerful wizard at a young age because they were worried that he could end up turning evil if not taught discipline. They are content with their life, and Korjik occasionally seems ashamed that they are so mundane. He does keep an eye on them when he can, and should someone threaten them, Korjik would obliterate the threat.

Now, making Korjik's mum a lich would not fit. She isnt that type of person. Having her involuntarily turned into a vampire would work, and I would love the idea (and the bad guys would have very very bad things happen to them).

My point is, both sides need to be flexible. The background is not carte blanche for the DM, and the background is not inviolate for the PC. Both people need to get together and work out a good idea that is acceptable to both

 

[Neonchameleon]

Hobo, I agree with you that your plot twist is on the table. However, it is not going to far at all to suggest that anyone becoming a lich is a big step which is going to require major foreshadowing. And, no, one's partner dying is not major foreshadowing for such an event.

Just to reiterate, turning into a cult high priestess would be on the table very easily. What it takes is some charisma, a lot of hard work, and a lot of determination - and a splash of luck. But none of these are required to literally be superhuman.

She's got the determination and hard work and after the departure of child and husband started focussing her formidable energies on her seemingly innocuous social grouping - that was in fact the outer circle of a cult. She was then tested and invited to the inner circle, and empowered by whoever the cult was for (this took three years or so for her to become an acolyte). In the remaining seven she's risen to the top of the cult, making pacts with eldritch beings/dark gods for power.

Fulfils the same narrative function, doesn't blow the implicit worldbuilding (levels are handled by cultists, like PCs, having short life expectancies so they can level faster without blowing the curve) or grant her superhuman stats so that she can fit the DM's predetermined plot. Edit: Turned involuntary into a vampire also works. It's the special features and background of the Lich that makes it a very poor choice.

 

[Desdichado]

I am not. I am simply saying that people don't change that much.

Yes, and it's just wrong. Why do you keep saying something that's so obviously wrong? I've given you the example of PCs and you keep saying that you think that PC's are "different" somehow; that just because PCs can do it, doesn't mean NPCs can. In fact, you seem to be insisting that they can't.

That is a patently and obviously nonsensical thing to say. It's just flat out wrong in inanely obvious fashion. It's the equivalent of saying that grass on earth tends to be purple and the sky tends to drip blood.

IF THE PCs CAN DO IT, THEN SO CAN AN NPC. Otherwise, NPCs wouldn't be able to have PC classes at all.

If liches can exist in the campaign setting at all, THEN AN NPC CAN BECOME ONE. You keep insisting that this is impossible. Your insistence, then precludes the very existance of liches.

I don't think that's really the argument you're trying to make, but you keep inventing nonexistant caveats and restrictions that lead to that conclusion.

You've changed her stats (made her superhumanly intelligent). You've changed her class (to wizard). What next? Changing her race? Oh, wait. She's now a lich.

Again... none of those are changed, because none of them were defined. A few sentences of backstory does not define attributes, class or much of anything else. Your continued insistence that this is a change when it, in fact, is nothing of the sort, is another example of your stubborn wrongheadedness.

Please... if we're going to have an intelligent discussion about this issue, QUIT MAKING STUFF UP ABOUT IT and then insisting that what YOU MADE UP must be true. It simply isn't the case that just because you say something over and over again it's true.

You mean you are either not reading it or not understanding it.

Of course I'm not understanding it! It's nonsensical!

I think that her becoming more obsessed and capable than every other ambitious mage in the land - most of whom have a huge headstart is utterly unreasonable, yes.

There you go making stuff up again. Every other ambitious mage in the land? So; again, liches can't actually exist in D&D then? Characters can't actually advance, then?

Seriously, think through these ridiculous claims before you make them. Shooting holes in your arguments are like shooting fish in a barrel. I'd like to have a more substantive conversation about this instead of be stuck pointing out the incredibly obvious holes in your argument that anyone even passingly familiar with D&D should be able to see through.

Try actually trying to understand what I'm writing. You seem to think that a middle aged person with no prior class levels or outstanding talent gaining 18 in the slowest class is reasonable. I think that if they could do that then lots of people would have. This doesn't mean that you can't reach lichdom - merely that very few people have that potential, and that it takes inhuman training, dedication, and time. Not something that can be learned even in ten years.

OF COURSE I THINK THAT! There are rules, right there for anyone to read in just the first few pages of the PHB that describe exactly how that happens. That's happened in every single campaign of D&D that I've ever heard of that ran that long. If PCs can do it, then OF COURSE ITS POSSIBLE TO DO and your continued insistence that its impossible is.... just... gah! So ridiculous!

And I will point out. Again. That PCs draw on all their resources every day at risk to their lives. They grow by overcoming inhumanly tough challenges and that is why they level up so fast. Or die in the process (the reason most wizards don't do this - life expectancy of PCs is not good). It's destruct testing.

So what? Irrelevant. For every mom that becomes a lich, 100 other moms die trying. OK. Whoop-de-doo. No relevance whatsoever to our discussion right now.

If she had literally reordered nations, faced down demons (or angels) and the whole range of other stuff done by PCs by the time they are in the teen levels, this would have had a huge impact on the world and would be known about. If she had not, then any comparison to the way PCs level is spurious - because she didn't do it that way.

That's not true either. There's no correllation whatsoever between level and fame. Most D&D PCs are doing their thing in dungeons, not population centers. Plus, if you were trying to become a lich, don't you think just a little bit of discretion might be a good idea?

Again, with the totally unjustified and made up restrictions. Seriously, cut that out.

 

[Raven Crowking]

IF THE PCs CAN DO IT, THEN SO CAN AN NPC.

No one, bar no one, is arguing otherwise. This is a total straw man.

What is disagreed with is the idea that "If the PCs can do it, then so can ANY NPC."

If the PCs are special in the world, then it takes a special NPC to do what the PCs do, and there should be signs that this person is special.

If liches are special in the world, then it takes a special being -- PC or NPC -- to succeed in becoming one, and there should be signs that this person is special.

It is really that simple.

Everything else is smoke and mirrors.


RC


EDIT: And, let's not forget that the plot twist itself relies upon the idea that lichdom is special. Unless, of course, you expect a rather bored "So what?" when the mother's lichdom is revealed!

EDIT EDIT: And, again, let's not forget.....The best thriller, suspense novel, mystery, etc., has something happen that makes you realize you should have seen it coming. But you didn't. The same with RPG twists. All the signs were there....but the red herrings and other stuff distracted you from seeing what was being built.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

A gain of intelligence from the 9-13 range to around 21? Suuuure. And putting on 18 levels of wizard.

I find it kind of humorous hat you pointed to 3E to support one claim then jump to 2E to support your standpoint here. 3E requirements are much less strict: Charisma 15 (13 starting plus two level increases) and 11 levels of sorcerer or Intelligence 16 (14 starting) and 11 levels of wizard.

Why are you so invested in doing something that the player of the PC involved thinks is such a horrible idea?

Another funny reply. The original DM in this scenario has already come back to tell us that his player did not think this was a horrible idea! A DM may become invested in the idea because he believes his players will enjoy the plot twist. And if they don't enjoy it he can learn from that what plot twists to use and not use in the future.

 

[Desdichado]

Why are you so invested in doing something that the player of the PC involved thinks is such a horrible idea?

Why would you even say that? What in the world have I posted in this thread that would lead you to believe that that's a relevant statement?

1) Neonchameleon isn't one of my players (thank goodness) so if he thinks this is a horrible idea, well, that's his deal.

2) My players would think this is a great idea.

3) I've never actually turned anyone's mom into a lich anyway; this is someone else's example. Someone who's player apparently liked it, by the way.

 

[Desdichado]

No one, bar no one, is arguing otherwise. This is a total straw man.

What is disagreed with is the idea that "If the PCs can do it, then so can ANY NPC."

Sorry, RC. You're the one with strawman here. I also never said that any NPC could do it. We're talking about a specific NPC.

If the PCs are special in the world, then it takes a special NPC to do what the PCs do, and there should be signs that this person is special.

If liches are special in the world, then it takes a special being -- PC or NPC -- to succeed in becoming one, and there should be signs that this person is special.

It is really that simple.

That is simple. However, it's not true. That's just another nonexistant restriction or definition that you made up. There need be no signs whatsoever. There's no reason that NPCs walk around telegraphing their intentions to become liches all their life. Aren't there plenty of posts in this very thread about how even PCs aren't really special until play starts?

That's another easily contradicted falsehood.