How much can you drop from d20,and still be d20?

[Mythtify]

Two years ago, Guardians of Order released Silver Age Sentinels d20. The boards were full of statements that it wasn't really a d20 game because there were no feats.

There are probaly other games that have dropped core d20 elements as well.

Now Green Ronin is going to be releasing Blue Rose RPG as a d20 game. According to the website(http://bluerose.greenronin.com/blue_rose_devlog_entry.php?id=43_0_15_0), it is dropping or changing many core d20 elements:

-no ability scores, just ability modifiers

-no character classes.

-no class abilities, just feats

-no hit points

-totally different magic system

-no experience points

-no miniature based combat

-different alignment system

Some of the ideas sound good to me, some I don't like. Though that’s not what I want to talk about. With this many different changes to the basic d20 system, is it still fare to call it d20? If so, what defines d20 as d20 for you? Where would you drawl the line and say that a system is no longer d20?

I am not talking about what is legal to call a d20 game or not. I am not a student of the d20/ogl licenses enough to go into that type of conversation. What I am interested in as gamers, and d20 fans, where do you drawl the line as to what is d20 and what isn’t?

 

[Tonguez]

"Roll D20 add modifers compare to DC" at its heart d20 is a skill resolution system with feats being a way to alter certain modifiers.

-no ability scores, just ability modifiers
About time! The ability scores are just a way of randomly determining modifiers anyway

-no character classes.
The Heroic roles - yeah whatever just because you don't call thems classes doesn't mean its not a class!

-no class abilities, just feats
Wonderful. Class Abilities are just 'exclusive' feat bundles anyway

-no hit points
This si a biggy, I assume in dropping Hit points/Vitality points (whatever) they are going to use a mechanic similar to M&M's 'damage save' which is all good but will change the dynamic

-totally different magic system
I assume you mean different to the Vancian system of standard DnD. NB DnD is NOT = D20

-no experience points
It will be interesting to see what they replace the 'character development' system with

-no miniature based combat
I don't use minatures for combat now

-different alignment system
Been done before, so not an essential of D20.

Calling and Conviction sounds interesting

 

[Ryu]

Oohh... That sounds nice... ^^' Sorry, I'm a total sucker for romance.

Anyways, I have to agree that some of the things there I do prefer. I could never really get along with Dungeons and Dragons styled magic systems (I even prefered Eden's 'Buffy: The Vampire Slayer' magick/sorcery system to it), and the non-tactical based fighting (I know I'm superficial, but I prefer an RPG where I don't have to fight straight up, but where running on walls, and pulling off some Matrix-swordplay stunts is easy) but some of the things there are bad, and still emphesis it's relation to d20 ... I mean...

- These new 'Heroic Roles' are still merely the same things (by name anyway) as the NPC classes from the Dungeon Masters Guide.
- The 'Conviction' point system is merely a knock-off of d20 Moderns Point system (forget what they were called) and Eden's Drama Point system.
- Not sure what to think of Resistance (Never played Mutants and Masterminds, or whatever) but it simly sounds like in-built DR based on level.

But with all this, and the whole 'Narrator decides when you level up' makes it sound more like a d20/White Wolf hybrid. I like most of the things there, but the narrator deciding when you level up... I think it's a double-edged sword...

 

[Capellan]

I like most of the things there, but the narrator deciding when you level up... I think it's a double-edged sword...

Honestly, I think that's a non-issue ... many DMs change the XP awards in D&D to modify the speed at which people go up, or juggle encounters to pace the rate of advancement, or just award XP by DM fiat. Explicitly putting that into the game rules (along with advice on when it is appropriate to allow level up) shouldn't affect the game adversely, and seems much more in keeping with the 'low book-keeping' approach the game seems to favour.

Now if only GRR can persuade Tamora Pierce to let them do an official Tortall sourcebook for it, I'll be very happy

 

[Ryu]

Meh... Suppose you have a point...

And nuuuh. Seeing as I've never read Tamora Pierce (never plan to, from the stuff I've read about her), I'll stick with 'Romance of the Three Kingdoms'. ^^ Wh00t! Goooooo Zhuge Liang!

 

[Aaron2]

- These new 'Heroic Roles' are still merely the same things (by name anyway) as the NPC classes from the Dungeon Masters Guide.

Actually, they are from Unearthed Arcana. They are basically the Fighter, Sorcerer and Rogue stripped of most class features but given more bonus feats instead.

- Not sure what to think of Resistance (Never played Mutants and Masterminds, or whatever) but it simly sounds like in-built DR based on level.

When you hit you roll d20+damage value versus the targets d20+resistance value. Depending on the rolls, the target can be killed, disabled or just lightly wounded (accumulating -1 penalties to their next Resistance rolls).

But with all this, and the whole 'Narrator decides when you level up' makes it sound more like a d20/White Wolf hybrid. I like most of the things there, but the narrator deciding when you level up... I think it's a double-edged sword...

Yeah, I don't like this either but its close to how some play D&D already.


As far as the original post goes, it seems pretty d20 to me.


Aaron

 

[Ryu]

Actually, they are from Unearthed Arcana. They are basically the Fighter, Sorcerer and Rogue stripped of most class features but given more bonus feats instead.

Ah, sorry. Never read it.

 

[Ryu]

Meeeeeeeeeeerf

Did that work?

 

[Lalato]

It sounds more like a d20/HeroQuest hybrid... but I can see where one might also say White Wolf.

As for how far it is removed from d20? I think you can still call it d20. In fact, I would venture to say that it is d20 stripped of some extraneous junk left over from AD&D.

Does that mean that D&D should move in this direction with regard to HitPoints and whatnot? Personally, I don't think so... For me, it wouldn't be D&D, and for all its faults, I love D&D (perhaps because of its faults).

--sam

 

[Frostmarrow]

But with all this, and the whole 'Narrator decides when you level up' makes it sound more like a d20/White Wolf hybrid. I like most of the things there, but the narrator deciding when you level up... I think it's a double-edged sword...

This is how we (my group) do it anyways. We are not in it for the XP.

Looks like a nice set or rules, Blue Rose.

I think d20 can be a lot of things. It's not really a question about what you take a way. To me it's a question of what's left. For example: C&C has no skills and feats but still feels very much like d20 - or even D&D. The bottom line seems to be that C&C has the d20 + modifiers vs DC left in place and that is what makes it d20.