How much does an inn cost to buy?

[Agemegos]

You're doing it again and I'm beginning to wonder why. You're comparing part of the gross profit from one company's prouct to the (accidentally miscalculated) costs from another companies product.

Check the continuity. I inveiged against an inn costing 272,000 gp, saying that no plausible turnover could amortise it. You leaped in to contradict me quoting a turnover of 4,500 per annum.

I pointed out that such a turnover was grossly inadequate to cover expenses, let alone provide a reasonable return on the investment under discussion. The fact that that turnover was associated with that investment was your doing, not mine.

I also pointed out that that turnover was improbable, given that it was based on prices that are very high in comparison to wages in the same environment.

I can expect to do it because I'm not randomly changing montary scales on different parts of the equation.

Well, I'm not randomly changing monetary scales either. When I have to compare real prices (ie. prices in comparison to wages) between to situations (which I have to do to make my argument that PHB prices for lodgings are very high in comparison to wages) I carefully compare mediaeval pennies (each 0.8 days' wages for common labour) with the slightly more valuable D&D silver pieces (each one day's wages for common labour).

The argument goes like this:

Common labourers in mediaeval times were very poor.

The wages of common labour listed in the PHB are substantially lower (when expressed in terms of food and especially lodging) than mediaeval real wages. Therefore the broad mass of people in a D&D word are absolutely impoverished. Therefore demand will be comparatively low for luxury (superior, technically) goods and services such as ale in taverns and rooms in inns.

But the PHB real prices (ie. prices in terms of wages) for these things are rather high (three times or more the mediaeval equivalents (in terms of wages, not pieces of money). Low demand combined with high prices suggests very low turnover.

If you weren't referring to D&D wages, D&D prices, and the 272,000 gp inn that I was criticising, your ought to have made that clear at the point when you replied to my post that was talking about those things.

 

[jgbrowning]

I would be interested in some calculations vs some known figures to see how close it comes. If nothing else, perhaps a correlation in prices possibly could be determined.

In the DMG, pg 101, it calls a simple house "this 1 to 3 room house is made of wood and has a thatched roof" at 1000gp.

House, 450sq.ft., dirt/wood/thatch, flat 20% carriage, Normal style "appropriate for average craftsmen", = 987gp completed in just over a week.

It calls a grand house "this 4 to 10 room house is made of wood and has a thatched roof" at 5000gp.

House, 1500sq.ft. (1000 on ground, 500 on top story), dirt/wood/thatch, flat 20% carriage, Tasteful style "minimum style of any successful merchant", = 4149 gp completed in just over 5 weeks

It calls a mansion "This 10 to 20 room residence has 2 to 3 stories and is made of wood and brick. It has a slate roof" at 100k gp.

House, 9000sq.ft. (3000 on each of the 3 floors), stone/brick/stone (here it's a bit different, when MMS:WE used wood it means the structure is using mostly wood for the walls, it think they mean to have brick on the outer walls so I'm using brick for the walls instead of wood), flat 20% carraige, luxurious style "expected by the nobility", = 78, 429 gp

Completed in 98 weeks. This is a bit off, I'd use something besides the "house" discriptor for a house of this scope. It would probably get done within a year which would be roughly as fast as the typical inn/tavern.

It calls a tower "This round or square, three-level tower is made of stone" at 50k gp.

Shell Keep, 30x30 3 stories all stone, flat 20% carriage, Style is Basic "provides a small manner of comfort within a mostly utilitarian structure", = 35,248 completed in under 5 weeks.

We think the building system is very good at generating a respectable figure for structures. It also breaks down structures into several components so GMs have some guidelines to work with when their PC has unusual circumstances. We also explain how spells and items affect the process.

The building times were one of the hardest to determine. The tower above is going up faster than it really would while the mansion is going up slower. We went with the expediant "X number of gp per week" to determine the fastest time the structure could be complete without overstaffing, ie. this is what would normally happen if you have a complete crew. The tower is fast because castles cost mucho bucks so their gp per week is high, while the mansion is slow because houses are comparatively cheep so their gp per week is low.

http://www.exp.citymax.com/page/page/411181.htm has some filled out worksheets. On page 7 is our write up of Harlech castle and page 9 has some notes about the historical construction. I don't think we did too shabby.

joe b.

 

[Doc_Klueless]

Why do players always want inns and taverns these days?
What happened to spending your gold on a castle or tower?

You meet way cooler weirdos if you're serving beer, wine and spirits, than if you're sitting in a cold, lonely tower.

 

[ichabod]

Check the continuity. I inveiged against an inn costing 272,000 gp, saying that no plausible turnover could amortise it. You leaped in to contradict me quoting a turnover of 4,500 per annum.

No I asked you a question about differing scales, after you made a sweeping statement about game designers and their poor connection with reality. Then I pointed out that the inn I had quoted was viable under the D&D rules.

I pointed out that such a turnover was grossly inadequate to cover expenses, let alone provide a reasonable return on the investment under discussion. The fact that that turnover was associated with that investment was your doing, not mine.

No, I was quite clear that I was talking about the inn I quoted. You are the one who mixed it up with the one quoted by Phineas. Not owning the book his figures came from, and realizing that it probably used different economic assumptions, I could not comment on the viability of his in.

I also pointed out that that turnover was improbable, given that it was based on prices that are very high in comparison to wages in the same environment.

I already did the comparison with wages. Any first level character without intelligence problems can average 7 gp per week. At that rate, the prices are not a problem.

Well, I'm not randomly changing monetary scales either. When I have to compare real prices (ie. prices in comparison to wages) between to situations (which I have to do to make my argument that PHB prices for lodgings are very high in comparison to wages) I carefully compare mediaeval pennies (each 0.8 days' wages for common labour) with the slightly more valuable D&D silver pieces (each one day's wages for common labour).

Which isn't necessarily a fair comparison. Just because you can draw a comparison between two things in two different economic systems doesn't mean that comparison holds throughout the system. Supply, demand, culture, demographics can change the relative prices of things within the system.

The wages of common labour listed in the PHB are substantially lower (when expressed in terms of food and especially lodging) than mediaeval real wages. Therefore the broad mass of people in a D&D word are absolutely impoverished. Therefore demand will be comparatively low for luxury (superior, technically) goods and services such as ale in taverns and rooms in inns.

Given that any first level character with an int of at least 10 can earn an average of 7 gp a week. Manual labor earns a tenth of that. If it states in the PHB that the broad mass of people are manual laborers, I missed that.

If you weren't referring to D&D wages, D&D prices, and the 272,000 gp inn that I was criticising, your ought to have made that clear at the point when you replied to my post that was talking about those things.

I made it quite clear what I was refering to in my post. This statement of yours on the other hand:

You see that most of the prices suggested by game designers display an almost schizophrenic lack of connection with plausibility.

I found vague, and assumed you making a general statement about game designers, which would include the prices I quoted. My appologies if I misunderstood your admittedly vague statements.

 

[dead]

For the many years that I've played D&D it's been a constant bane working out how much such and such might cost.

At the moment I just say that 1gp = $40

From where I come from -- in the modern day world -- an inn would cost a minimum of $500,000.

So, $500,000 ÷ 40 = 12,500gp.

So far, this formula seems to be working but I haven't checked against ALL items in the PHB and DMG.

I know a longsword costs 15gp (from memory, I don't have the PHB on hand) which means it's worth $600. This may seem like a lot, but then again, how much does it cost to equip a modern day soldier? Thousands of dollars!

Bare in mind I don't come from the USA. The value of our dollar is about 70% of the US dollar.

I've just started this system -- it comes from Gygax's idea in World Builder (or Living Fantasy?) -- but there will probably be flaws in it.

 

[Sledge]

For the record, there is no point in comparing costs to modern costs. Things are dramatically different in their proportions. Housing these days is very inflated from even a century ago.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Just one thing...

lyre of building: 13000 gp.

Produces the effect of 600 man-days of work in an hour of playing.

Which sort of blows holes in most systems methods of determining the price of a structure, not least of which those that suggest any value over about 13,000 gp for any one building that's not of ludicrous size.

Mind you, that includes D&D's own systems.

 

[micromaximum]

Don't forget that building costs aren't the only thing to consider. Land isn't free and there are definitely going to be taxes. Then there are guild fees and/or licenses to consider. The local underworld is going to want a cut and maybe even the local law enforcement, especially if you have a lot of trouble with brawls. Then there are the employees to pay and you always have to worry about theft from both patrons and employees. You also need to deal with suppliers and maybe even entertainment.

If the characters really want to own an inn, it's probably best to work it into the background of the story and gloss over many of the details like cost, revenue and profit. Perhaps they can do some important work for a wealthy benefactor that rewards them by bringing them in as special partners. They own an inn but all of the details are handled by their business partner. Profits shouldn't matter, because a single adventure would probably result in greater material rewards than years of operating an inn. Instead just let them know they stay in the best rooms, eat the finest food and otherwise live the good life on their share of the profits. The rest of their money goes towards showing the employees and patrons a good time and in return their friends keep an ear open for interesting news and make sure no one surprises the characters on their home turf.

 

[Agemegos]

No, I was quite clear that I was talking about the inn I quoted. You are the one who mixed it up with the one quoted by Phineas.

Look at post #18 in this thread. That is your post, is it not? Look at the quoted text in it. The subject was very definitely an inn costing 272,000 gp.

As for the 7gp/week income of craftsmen, I maintain that when taken in juxtaposition with the 1sp/day wage of common labour (PHB p96) it is further evidence of the carelessness and contempt for even easy reality-checking that is common amongst game designers. Wage differentials in mediaeval employment were nothing like so wide, and there is no clear reason why a D&D economy ought to provide below-starvation wages to common labour. Nor does it make any sort of economic sense that labourer's wages should be so low if jobs as craftsmen are so rewarding and as easy to obtain as you assume.

You suggest that the economy of a D&D society need not be based on a broad mass of people ekeing out livings by common labour. You suppose that the vast majority might be craftsmen instead, their incomes consisting of at least 90% return on their human capital. That is an interesting (but problematic) model for a post-industrial society, but it is completely inconsistent with a quasi-mediaeval setting such as most DMs assume. If a D&D society does *not* consist largely of agricultural workers, someone ought to say so.

 

[S'mon]

For the record, there is no point in comparing costs to modern costs. Things are dramatically different in their proportions. Housing these days is very inflated from even a century ago.

Hmm, housing costs vary a lot depending on land scarcity & construction costs (wages and materials) but they tend to stay within the same order of magnitude. I believe housing in UK now is about 2.5 times more expensive relative to wages than a century ago; OTOH a much higher proportion of the adult population is in work - mostly due to women entering the salaried workforce - and it's easier to get a mortgage; affordability over the whole country for a typical family thus hasn't changed much.

I've never heard anything like that 1-2% figure for medieval interest rates before, I don't know if it represents church-approved rates or was just made up from thin air, in either case it seems irrelevant. I have one snippet of interest-rate info from the Classical world:

In the first century BC Lucullus, placed in charge of Asia Minor by the Roman Senate, made himself very unpopular with usurers by a decree limiting maximum interest rates to 12% - presumably that was considered a 'fair' amount. I get the impression that real historical interest rates for private lending to 'respectable' borrowers have tended to mostly be in the 10-20% per annum range, several posters here have given similar figures.

I think MMW: WE's figures for building prices are designed to tie in with the DMG's building costs - which seem completely arbitrary figures intended to make buildings expensive for PCs, so expensive that Daern's Instant Fortresses are reasonable housing alternatives for the minor noble(!) - rather than to tie in with the DMG's stated hireling costs, that appear to exist in another reality altogether.

As far as money goes IMC, I use something like 1gp = $50, 1 sp = $5, $5/1sp is the survival/subsistence wage for a single adult. So I have to reduce the building costs - IMC 500gp buys a pretty decent, if modest, dwelling. 50,000gp buys a substantial castle.

edit: In fact, looking at the DMG building costs, just dividing them all by 10 seems to give pretty reasonable results that make some sense when compared to DMG magic item prices & labour costs.