WotC How much does Hasbro / WotC impact your feelings towards D&D?

[Not a Decepticon]

How you feel about a company is a personal issue. It is not a general problem.

I am talking about problems that will affect everyone, and you are trying really hard to boil it down to "it's jsut a you problem" because it's easier.

No, I am not. A chokepoint must be able to restrict flow, or it isn't a chokepoint. If you can easily go around, it isn't a chokepoint.

but D&D Beyond in particular is not easy to circumvent. Say someone runs a game on D&D Beyond. Say you were invited. Say you own books from Kobold Press or MCDM or Ghostfire Gaming. Beautiful hardcover physical copies. Guess what? You cannot use them to make your character on D&D Beyond without breaking terms of service, because you have to buy them on D&D Beyond AGAIN. If you just copypaste material from the books you own on your sheet without buying them on the website, it is now egible to deletion for copyright infrigment.

And you simply cannot legally get stuff from Kickstarter from anywhere else, except long after Kickstarter is done with it. There is a huge amount of material on DriveThru RPG and its subsitiadies (DMSGuild, Storyteller's Vault, Pathfinder Infinite) that you legally cannot get anywhere else. Case in point, there are entire campaigns on DMSGuild - The New Black Dawn, Labor of the Dragon God, Sword Coast Coup - you CANNOT get anywhere else. These are all chokepoints.

No, I am addressing what you said. If this isn't even about you, then are you trying to speak on behalf of unknown people who have not even expressed this issue and it's not even impacting you?

I am not dismissing your view but I am addressing it and finding it wanting. I am asking if your view is because it's your group doing this to you (the pressure thing you mentioned), or you have evidence of other being pressured. You got upset when I assumed it was yours, because you kept expressing it as if it were, but if it's not even you then yeah, I think it's pretty unsupported for you to say "It will be so popular and people will like it so much that will be bad because I think it's a bad inferior product and others will be pressured into using it anyway." You have a lot of assumptions to support there - 1) it's bad, 2) it will be huge despite being bad, 3) others won't compete with a better product, and 4) people will be pressured to using it despite them not liking it. So far the only support for any of this is you don't like it, and I assumed you felt pressured.

Your stance is reductive and tries to boil down the problem to just either a personal issue or something I have seen happen to others, which would then make both of them easy to dismiss. You are trying to drag down widespread and reoccuring problems to individual levels to dismantle them without having to actually adress the root of the problem. The thing is, we see constantly this happen in every other field, the same scenario occuring whenever chokepoints appear. it is a pattern and we';re witnessing it begins to form in rpgs. And personally I'll be damned if I let disgusting corporations and parasites in charge of it to ruin this hoppy like they ruined everything else.

 

[Mistwell]

Your stance is reductive and tries to boil down the problem to just either a personal issue or something I have seen happen to others

Yeah, you know, asking for EVIDENCE.

If it bothers you that people ask you to support your theory with something more than theory but actual evidence, then just say you're not up for a discussion. Because people are going to press you on your argument to, yah know, support it.

, which would then make both of them easy to dismiss. You are trying to drag down widespread and reoccuring problems

No I am trying to get you to provide evidence that there is a problem at all. You claim it's widespread and reoccurring but when I have repeatedly ask you to provide evidence you talk in theories and refuse to admit it's even something that's happened to you, much less many others.

to individual levels to dismantle them without having to actually adress the root of the problem. The thing is, we see constantly this happen in every other field

You were not even right about the one other field you raised to build your argument and won't even reply anymore to that apparently. I keep meeting you where you're at, and you keep telling me you're not even open to discussing a response to where you're at. You were wrong about streaming, you have given no other field that it's happening, which doesn't even approach the evidence you'd need to provide to declare that means it's happening in this field, and cannot name one single person in all the world it's happening to in this field and appear to get offended when I ask you to.

To persuade someone of your position, you will in fact have to come down from "but it could happen!" and actually support a claim it IS happening.

, the same scenario occuring whenever chokepoints appear. it is a pattern and we';re witnessing it begins to form in rpgs. And personally I'll be damned if I let disgusting corporations and parasites in charge of it to ruin this hoppy like they ruined everything else.

You have not even supported the claim it is happening. It kind of feels like you recently learned about the theory of chokepoints, wanted to toss it into a D&D discussion, and were not prepared to answer hard questions about how the theory applies to this actual set of events. Or maybe not, just explaining what it looks like from my seat.

You also are kind of powerless to decide if it happens too. Since, by your own admission, your fear is it will be popular.

 

[CleverNickName]

I don't think about Hasbro/Wizards of the Coast when I'm reading my D&D books, or when I'm deciding whether or not to buy something, or when I'm prepping an adventure, or when I'm playing. The only time I ever think about Hasbro or Wizards of the Coast at all, is when I'm reading certain threads at ENWorld. Otherwise, they never cross my mind.

Which makes sense. Escapism is a big part of what I enjoy about RPGs as a whole, and D&D specifically.

 

[Scott Christian]

Thanks. To be clear my issue has been with the mechanics of the game, particularly at the higher levels - but many here have expressed no such issue. It may just be my personal preferences with how I'd like things to work.

Well, higher levels are a thing that can cause consternation - even for the most fluid of tables. At least, that has been my experience.

 

[Umbran]

but D&D Beyond in particular is not easy to circumvent. Say someone runs a game on D&D Beyond. Say you were invited. Say you own books from Kobold Press or MCDM or Ghostfire Gaming. Beautiful hardcover physical copies. Guess what? You cannot use them to make your character on D&D Beyond without breaking terms of service, because you have to buy them on D&D Beyond AGAIN. If you just copypaste material from the books you own on your sheet without buying them on the website, it is now egible to deletion for copyright infrigment.

That seems to me to be redefining the concept of a chokepoint in the market halfway through the discussion. I don't buy your new definition.

Would you call the GM a chokepoint if he simply said, "I don't allow those books in my game."? Because the effect is largely the same.

And, did you know that it is possible to play a game of D&D in which some people use D&D Beyond, and other people use paper character sheets? It happens at my table at every session, because one player has decided he prefers paper. Works fine.

And you simply cannot legally get stuff from Kickstarter from anywhere else, except long after Kickstarter is done with it. There is a huge amount of material on DriveThru RPG and its subsitiadies (DMSGuild, Storyteller's Vault, Pathfinder Infinite) that you legally cannot get anywhere else. Case in point, there are entire campaigns on DMSGuild - The New Black Dawn, Labor of the Dragon God, Sword Coast Coup - you CANNOT get anywhere else. These are all chokepoints.

The point of the exclusive licensing on those platforms is to allow access to IP the authors would not have. The material there that cannot be sold elsewhere is exclusive because it uses WotC IP.

That's not being a chokepoint - that's offering a license deal for an opportunity the authors wouldn't have at all otherwise.

The 5e rules are under CC now. Nothing stops you from creating campaigns for D&D, in general. You just can't use all the setting information WotC has published. So, not a chokepoint, in general. Sorry.

 

[Not a Decepticon]

That seems to me to be redefining the concept of a chokepoint in the market halfway through the discussion. I don't buy your new definition.

I shwoed an example of how D&D Beyond cannot be easily circumvented, to fit your own definition of a chokepoint YOU insisted on. I played by your argument and showed a weakness in it. Acussing me of trying to change definitions when I played by your rules is akin to hiding your head in the sand.

Would you call the GM a chokepoint if he simply said, "I don't allow those books in my game."? Because the effect is largely the same.

GM is a customer as are everyone else who buy the books to play.

And, did you know that it is possible to play a game of D&D in which some people use D&D Beyond, and other people use paper character sheets? It happens at my table at every session, because one player has decided he prefers paper. Works fine.

And why do you think WotC marketing is so agressively pushing the image of D&D being something you ONLY do through D&D Beyond, to the point their commercials for D&D 2024 have people sit at the table, push away the books, and then play on tablets? WotC wants to create culture where playing through D&D Beyond is default and exclude those who do not want to abbandon pen and paper or cannot afford a tablet. It's one of reasons why I hate it so much.

The point of the exclusive licensing on those platforms is to allow access to IP the authors would not have. The material there that cannot be sold elsewhere is exclusive because it uses WotC IP.

That's not being a chokepoint - that's offering a license deal for an opportunity the authors wouldn't have at all otherwise.

The 5e rules are under CC now. Nothing stops you from creating campaigns for D&D, in general. You just can't use all the setting information WotC has published. So, not a chokepoint, in general. Sorry.

So who is now changing definitions? I pointed out in what way content from DMSGuild (and Pathfinder Infinite and Storyteller's Vault) is not avialable anywhere else due to the very licenses you are trying to defend. The fact this content is avialable only there makes it what you yourself pointed as a chokepoint trait - that it cannot be circumvented. It seems to me you're moving the goalposts now.

Yeah, you know, asking for EVIDENCE.

If it bothers you that people ask you to support your theory with something more than theory but actual evidence, then just say you're not up for a discussion. Because people are going to press you on your argument to, yah know, support it.

My problem is that the specific forms of evidence you asked for are 1) personal experience, which can be dismissed as "it's jsut a you problem" in an attempt to undermine the whole issue by focusing on me as a single individual. I had been victim to this very line of argument before. b) asking if I have seen other people it happens to, which is ANECDOTAL evidence that is not substantial, and in fact serves to make one's argument weaker.

Could you provide request that doesn't look liike a blatant attempt at setting up a rhetorical trap?

 

[AnotherGuy]

I don't see anything awesome into being pressured (by everyone else using it) to switch to a poorly-designed site that can proved it crash and make people dependent on it unable to play, where every little stupid thing is behind a paywall, and now is trying to pressure people into using a horrible vtt that will likely murder my computer and become permament barier of entry for people with worse hardware.

I'm not a fan of D&D Beyond, but I find it is a natural evolution of corporate greed but honestly also good business sense.

However, D&D has always been about finding a play group with a similar play style, therefore not joining D&D Beyond so as not to be locked into playing their version of the game is but an expansion of what has always existed.
The additional benefit of not joining being, that one can easier resist the temptation of the micro-transactions for additional content.

What I'm trying to say, is that this is not something new...every new edition/version of the game, every splatbook required having to deal with player pressure to conform and include.

If we had listened to people like you back in the day, there would have been no evolution of the game for fear of being pressured.
And all that, is not to say I do not get your boiling frog analogy, but to let you know that nothing has changed except that they have added a different medium to consume the game besides dead tree format. The pressure to conform was always there and will continue to be there.

 

[Remathilis]

So who is now changing definitions? I pointed out in what way content from DMSGuild (and Pathfinder Infinite and Storyteller's Vault) is not avialable anywhere else due to the very licenses you are trying to defend. The fact this content is avialable only there makes it what you yourself pointed as a chokepoint trait - that it cannot be circumvented. It seems to me you're moving the goalposts now.

So if your argument is WotC is creating a choke point via D&D Beyond, it seems counterintuitive to bring up OBS, which is not owned by WotC and has exclusive fan content licensing from three different companies (including both WotC and Paizo).

"Oh noes, WotC is forcing me to buy all this stuff on their digital platform, except for the stuff I can only get on a different digital platform. Or buy the physical books for. Damn WotC!!!"

 

[Older Beholder]

I've played in a few different groups online, in each case we just use Discord for the camera, other than that we still just use physical dice and books.

 

[Oofta]

I've played in a few different groups online, in each case we just use Discord for the camera, other than that we still just use physical dice and books.

I know some people say that when they play online they always roll using whatever VTT they have but we never bothered either. After all it's not like I'm looking over people's shoulders as they roll, even if I do roll out in the open when I DM in person. I currently run a mixed game of in-person and remote, like you we just use a camera and discord.

Meanwhile I use DDB now because I find it useful, if that ever changes because I find it too expensive I'll stop using it.