Dowry versus Bride Price
AeroDm said:
Couple more questions for the ENWorld crew:
First, there seems to be conflicting messages coming in. I was under the assumption that a dowry was paid _to_ the Duke for his daughter. This was due to the typical nature of daughters moving in with husbands, and then good sons taking care of elderly parents (ie- duke loses his kid so he gets gold to take care of him instead). Some of the posts seem to be implying that the Duke would be paying out cash.
There are actually two forms, dowry and bride price. Most cultures had one or the other, but it is possible for a culture to have both.
Dowry was the payment from the bride's family to the groom or the groom's family. The monies (or more likely, livestock or lands) were meant to be used to take care of the bride, both during the mariage and after she was widowed (which was an assumed thing, save when the woman died in childbirth). How much of the dowry she would maintain after her husband's death, and how much would go to the husband's family, depended upon the marriage contract. Sometimes, if the bride was proven to be an adultress, the groom would keep the dowry. Almost invariably, especially in European cultures, when dealing especially with livestock and lands, the woman would still "own" the land but, being a dependent of her husband (chattel, in fact), the husband would control the dowry and the usufruct thereof. Opposed to this, the Koranic tradition of medieval Islam (not the tribal tradition that reigns today) required that the bride agree to the contract of her own free will, and therein it was therefore often stipulated that *she* would control and own the dowry lands and gains.
Bride price was the price paid from the groom and his family to the bride's family for the loss of their daughter's labor. This was usually significantly lower than a dowry would be, and would usually be in cash or goods. The groom's family would have claim to it again only if the bride proved not a virgin, or if she became an adultress.
Note also that by "family" it was meant to be the extended family of the day, what we would today regard as a clan.
From here I break down and get lost. I would assume that the king would tax him at least 50%, so would it be foolish to assume that his annual income would be approx 1,000,000 gp with which he maintains an army for his lord, roads, cities, guards, and supplies himself with a nice lifestyle?
Sounds about right based on the monetary model you have for your world, though realize that most of that would not be in cash, it would be in kind.
From there one could assign a dowry from 12,500 to 25,000 and it would be extremely meaningful. Amounts in the 1-2 million range are simply too absurd at any level unless it is royal. Else entire kingdoms would have to pull together to see the princess wed.
Any problems forseen? Insights to be given? Qualms to be rendered? Thanks for the help.
Actually, from a quick glance at various sources, it seems that noble doweries were quite large. A wealthy baron, for example, who had an annual income of between 200 and 500 pounds was expected to provide a dowry of upward of 1,000 pounds value. Of course, noble dowries would rarely be in coin. They would be in lands or, in barbaric settings, livestock. And then, they would not necessarily be paid all up front. Some dowries took 20 or more years to pay.
This of course is somewhat more difficult in the case where, as in most D&D worlds, lands held in fief to the king have real meaning, wheras in the real world the holding of lands in fief was a far less straightforward thing. If your duke works under a strong king, his granting of lands as dowry would have to be approved by the king, and even then, the lands would still be held in fief to the duke (making the son-in-law owe fealty for that land). This problem actually came up historically, where one duke would owe fealty for one land to one king, and to another for another king, and would have to provide men and material for both sides during a war...
If you also want to use bride price, a special gift of livestock, or perhaps a magical weapon or armor or item worth 1/4 to 1/2 the groom's yearly income would be most appropriate, I think, in a high fantasy world. As in... "Good father to be, though it is some small recompense for the loss of thy goodly daughter Eldabeth, I present to you this sword, Aklamarae "Flame Doom", forged by the Elf-Mage Nimbranul, enchanted with many runes to be most efficacious against things unholy. May the pure white flames that dance upon it's glittering blade burn ever as bright as my ardor for your blessed daughter..."
Anyhoo, remember, with the nobles especially, dowry is not a simple "here's the cash, have a fun life" situation. It ties together the families in even more important and binding ways than a marriage normally would. Lots of chances for intrigue and roleplaying there, to be sure.
James
It turns out it could be either to the husband, or from the husband.
